[APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Map Approval Requests

[APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby Incompetence » 13 February 2019, 19:06

rest in peace to those plants lmao

[1]
- To the best of my knowledge, the following map fits all requirements to be approved: YES
- The following map contains no unfair hidden features: YES
- The following map contains nothing against the PB2 Code of Conduct: YES
- I have read and understand fully the Required Reading for posting a Map Approval Request: YES
- I have read and understand fully the Map Approval Rules: YES

[2]
- Map Name: Urbanwar Revised
- Map ID: incompetence-uwr
- Link to Map Page: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m=incompetence-uwr
- Link to Map Demo: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=2&map=incompetence-uwr

[3]
- Give a brief description of the map: My personal edit for raffine-urbanwar. I experimented with some ideas to try to solve some of its issues. Edit derived from the urbanwar derivation that Jason Eden made.



- Why you think the map deserves to be approved: it's overall less campy because of interrupted sightlines that don't extend too far out in range as well as a lack of enclosed spaces that would give power to camping overall, and it's in line with what the original map was aiming to be: a gun battle in an urban setting. I compared other versions like jason eden's version and phsc's version and tried to incorporate some elements from those versions into this one while also making room for some random ideas I had in mind. I added more lanes that also end up merging at different points to provide different flanking routes and I also blocked off certain lanes so players are forced to change lanes; mostly it was just so people don't shoot across the map through these lanes. I feel like having cut off lanes creates different paths that have its own tactical benefits and advantages and having these "paths" naturally makes the skill cap higher as you now need to know which path to take that is most beneficial in certain scenarios as well as knowing the way around in general. plus regular 3+ lane maps that go back and forth is pretty boring and repetitive in games, even if it makes movement smoother and easier. something as simple as this could change things up in a big way imo. movement is pretty unrestricted though so you can get around the map just fine without struggling or being cramped, despite the cut off lanes that merge with one another. this was a major thing I wanted to get right, especially with a weird design choice such as this.


- Any other comments: the preview is missing a wall or two that I added after taking the screenshot of the map, but it's nothing major. just a slight change.

this current version is also what I call the "beta version" of this map, meaning it's ready to play in, but it's not exactly done yet. I'm looking for feedback so I can make adjustments and fine tune things like weapon damage and even general things like blocking specific windows/creating different sightlines. based on what I get, there's a chance this map might end up looking different, hence why I say it's not "exactly done" yet

CS-RC is modified so it now has 0.75 projectile power and 0.7 speed. this might change depending on the feedback. I've also added sniper rifles - one for each team. it can penetrate through the thin doors around the map, which of course is pretty powerful considering it's the only weapon that can do so easily and with consistency, but I feel its slow speed is a countering drawback to its power. again, I'll wait until the feedback comes in to see if the sniper rifles need a look at
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby Jason Eden » 13 February 2019, 19:58

I hate you.

This is a piece of art. I like the cave system (?). And the map is overall fun to explore.

But it has those common problems that had to be solved. And those are:

1) Long lines of fire. Eric did not like them in original urbanwar - http://prntscr.com/mkp276
2) Eric also said that modified guns are not allowed in approved maps.
3) Map does not look like Raffine-urbanwar anymore. If we are remaking his map we should respect the choices he made with backgrounds, weapons, etc.

Other problems:
1) Glowing edge - http://prntscr.com/mkp4nc
2) This does not look like a part of the building. Walls like this belong to the cave at the bottom - http://prntscr.com/mkp59b
3) I don't know what did you do, but these walls are glowing? - http://prntscr.com/mkp5r0 http://prntscr.com/mkp8pi
4) Illumination in the building does not look natural - http://prntscr.com/mkp7hf
5) Middle roof is a perfect camp spot.
6) I think third lamp is not needed here - http://prntscr.com/mkp96f

I honestly would like to see this map approved. Not as a Raffine-urbanwar remake, but as a separate map.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby phsc » 13 February 2019, 20:26

YOU REMOVED THE PLANTS! How incompetent are you? you insect! IT ALSO HAS LAMPS!
Eric does not want modded guns in Plazma Burst, and this map uses ground as a background, we need to stay in the past and follow what our god Raffine did, even tho the best version made yet is terrible and really not similar to the original urbanwar and it is uglier and terrible to move around but ignore that, staff man bad, ok?


Anyway, I think you did a pretty good job, I will play it with Ditzy and some other people later and give actual feedback but from only looking at it I see a few potential problems, please consider I did not play it yet and will make another post after playing it, but I want skilled players that can also give good ideas to play it with me.

http://prntscr.com/mkpc2q
1 is a possible problem, imagine you are on top area of the 1 area, you can easily shoot down that vertical tunnel - which maybe a player might not be able to go up with swordless jumping which is a dumb approval requeriment - and then, a player on the bottom part can easily just go left and up, but the player on the top also has an advantage, in my map that does not happen but, a method for fixing that would be maybe making that window that is open but more inside the building than the other three (the middle building) as a balcony so a third player can join the battle with a decent point which could make the middle ground player(top of the 1 area) have to go back and then the bottom player might go up, but a smart player can just use teleport grenades or just deliciously exquisite pizza sauce rush in low 20 300 ping or something.
Another thing that heavily affects that is the view a player gets, which does not include information of bottom movement I guess which might help.

2 has a big problem, someone top has a really, really big line oif fire, again there is the problem with top person having an advatange which probably has no view of bottom and is easy to kill from a lateral side whic he might not expect, but that case he can just go down way easier and escape but I think that it is almost impossible for someone bottom who is getting shot at to go up or even survive going down as there are stairs then a big hole which you wont fall into water in my map yet on ground and maybe water with luck and enought speed.
Anyway again theres that requeriment for approval of players being able to go up there without self boosting or using swords dumb shit.

3 is more of a decoration point of view, but in the other side you constantly added stairs as roofings, id add there but bigger blocks so it is easier to use grenades, that gives a little bit less of an advatange of a top player because he might hit the edge of one of thoose top blocks when nading down to get someone he can't shoot at and that does not really affect people from bottom using grenades too.

4 I'm not sure but it looks way better of a camping spot, and I don't really like what you did to the roofing of the middle building but then I did not play it not sure how it affects, a player standing on top 4 area has an easy way to nade someone using that closed door bottom, a great angle of fire that is hard to nade right and well, left is pretty hard to deal with since he has no view but if he stays in the window area someone from top won't be able to hit him, if that person jumps its very likely that person will get damaged and get either bottom which might cause what I mentioned in the bottom to up case but with time for the camping player to adapt or get into a terrible position where the camping player might kill her.

But I do like how it came out, it looks very open and I'm not sure how much it affects, it is indeed different, and my points might be invalid since I have not played it yet, but good job I guess.


Anyway, I love how Jason Eden doesn't give positive things related to your map other than implying his dogmas such as "this is art" which, may I say, if we take the meaning of the word, art from "ars" from greek I think, it means technique, virtuosity, and I will not lie, this does not look like something with a ton of technique of virtuosity - not trying to offend you - but in the world of Plazma Burst, I think a complex triggering system such as those made by Mrnat or great decoration skills such as those made by that dude who made the boring zombies map that looks amazing, have in a more objective way, a higher artistic value, as in theory my version has, of course I mentioned in theory as I did not play this yet, and as Jason Eden mentioned there have been a few map making skills errors such as glowing edges, which can easily be fixed, but I think you got what I'm trying to say about artistic value and PB2.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby Incompetence » 13 February 2019, 21:06

Jason Eden wrote:1) Long lines of fire. Eric did not like them in original urbanwar - http://prntscr.com/mkp276

where are you getting these from? the CS-RC can't penetrate through some of those walls/doors and even if it could, its accuracy would be absolutely garbage at longer ranges. the CS-Pro doesn't deal enough damage to be considered a serious threat at longer ranges even though it has better accuracy over range

this is a more accurate representation of the longer lines of fire if you were to use the CS-RC primarily like you're supposed to: http://prntscr.com/mkpngg

only the sniper rifle can create the lines of fire you mention, simply because it's a high-powered long range weapon. primarily you wouldn't be using the sniper rifle and if you were, then you risk being countered by other players using CS-RCs, especially since you give away your location with the sniper rifle's laser

Jason Eden wrote:2) Eric also said that modified guns are not allowed in approved maps.

staff said it was allowed. I'd like to see where eric said that because that doesn't add up

Jason Eden wrote:3) Map does not look like Raffine-urbanwar anymore. If we are remaking his map we should respect the choices he made with backgrounds, weapons, etc.

I don't get this point. the map still has the basic fundamental design concept of raffine-urbanwar. the original can still be recognized from this version or any version from that matter because the original is literally the base design of those edits that are derived from it

the weapons are literally the same except for the addition of the sniper rifle which is there as a way to gain leverage over the other team and to act as a power play weapon. the CS-RC modifications aren't even that drastic enough to take away the original feel of the weapon.

personally I disagree with some of the choices made in the original. that doesn't mean I have no respect for raffine's choices. I simply don't find those choices to be good. the two are mutually exclusive.

Jason Eden wrote:1) Glowing edge - http://prntscr.com/mkp4nc
3) I don't know what did you do, but these walls are glowing? - http://prntscr.com/mkp5r0 http://prntscr.com/mkp8pi

me neither. idk how that happened. i'll redo all of the backgrounds and overlap them into the walls again and see if that helps.

Jason Eden wrote:4) Illumination in the building does not look natural - http://prntscr.com/mkp7hf

a downward facing light on an object will illuminate the top surface while the sides remain darker. the lighting realistically depicts this as best as possible, at least to me. how the lighting works is ultimately based on the game engine. personally my only problem with the lighting is how the shadows look, which I kind of don't like

phsc wrote:Anyway, I think you did a pretty good job, I will play it with Ditzy and some other people later and give actual feedback but from only looking at it I see a few potential problems, please consider I did not play it yet and will make another post after playing it, but I want skilled players that can also give good ideas to play it with me.

that's fine. I'm positive there's a few issues here and there gameplay wise anyways so feedback is most definitely welcome. it'll also be somewhat of a learning process for me as a mapmaker so expert opinions are always helpful in cases like these

phsc wrote:3 is more of a decoration point of view, but in the other side you constantly added stairs as roofings, id add there but bigger blocks so it is easier to use grenades,

could you show what you mean with a picture or visual? I don't really get what you mean based off this

phsc wrote:Anyway again theres that requeriment for approval of players being able to go up there without self boosting or using swords dumb shit.

yeah, I had fixed that right after I took the screenshot but the screenshot doesn't show it. it's one of the blocks I mentioned that's not in the picture. you can climb out of that area underground without self-boosting

phsc wrote: this does not look like something with a ton of technique of virtuosity - not trying to offend you - but in the world of Plazma Burst, I think a complex triggering system such as those made by Mrnat or great decoration skills such as those made by that dude who made the boring zombies map that looks amazing, have in a more objective way, a higher artistic value

no offense taken. I agree with you actually

there's nothing inherently complex about this map. it was designed in a really simple manner so it'll pale in comparison to something with complex elements
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby phsc » 14 February 2019, 01:21

Incompentece wrote:it'll also be somewhat of a learning process for me as a mapmaker so expert opinions are always helpful in cases like these

I think Jason Eden clearly refutes your sentence with this he said in my approval request for phsc-urbanwar.
Jason Eden wrote:Afterall, I'm more experienced in level editor than you, Artichokecat, Ditzy and Kiriakos all together, especially in design-related questions.

You can clearly see I'm no expert and Jason Eden is a god upon mortal men, ok?

Anyway.
Incompetence wrote:could you show what you mean with a picture or visual? I don't really get what you mean based off this

Actually ignore that I just opened it up to take the screenshot and my critic was not valid, the map in person makes that part look way smaller than I when I looked at that full map screenshot, the problem I was talking about is not present and adding the thing I was talking about would just make it worse.

EDIT: spelling 100
Last edited by phsc on 14 February 2019, 16:00, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby Incompetence » 14 February 2019, 03:54

phsc wrote:You can clearly see I'm no expert and Jason Eden is a god upon mortal men, ok?

pfft everyone knows raffine is the true god of mapmaking. his OG urbanwar is the pinnacle of urbanized warfare and map design that was way ahead of his time. we mortals just cannot recognize his exceptional handiwork for the greatness it truly is.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] incompetence-uwr

Postby phsc » 14 February 2019, 21:22

So, I feel kinda sad now.
I played the map with Ditzy and he gave me his opinions which are included in this post.

BUT FIRST OF ALL, there is one extreme problem with the map.
Pistols are too OP, higher DPS than assault rifles but they pierce and have better accuracy.

A few other observations are, many spawns without any guns at all, way less top area fighting but I will go over why later, and the fact that the sniper rifle is in a general way bad as the map is really CQC.
Another thing is that the map feels too big in practice, it feels different from other realwar maps, it is literally the opposite feeling of Jason Eden's current version.

Anyway, points 4 and 6 were also mentioned by Ditzy.

1. This place is terrible to fight in, top area is not capable of sending good grenades down as I imagined which actually happened in practice, while bottom area can throw grenades but it is very likely for him to die with 2 or 3 shots from a pistol if he goes in for that, wall boucing does not do the job from a bottom view, self boosting up is suicide and taking the alternative route is too risky as it takes time and it might allow your enemy to go down and kill you, with the window being closed making so you are not able to jump up, the only good method would be a third player joining either from the top area of 2 or from 4, but again it is a third player which fixes almost all conflicts other than 6 which I will explain later.

2. This area is in a general way not very comfy to play, if you are on top you can easily hit someone bottom while they don't have any idea of where you are, if they go up you still keep an advantage from any angle they come from, which happened a lot with me fighting agaisn't Ditzy, grenades are only effective really close range which is not viable because the only method you get in would be via that hole near the 2 top red team player spawn and even then boucing is not a option and to hit up there you can easily get shot which can lead to dying state or low health which makes so upper player can rush, a third person coming from top of the camping spot or 1 area can end the fight pretty easily killing the camper, happened a lot when Ditzy was standing there and I went from top, mostly from the 1 area, as from the into outside top escape area one can easily run from camping spot to bottom 1 area or self boost and use swords or sniper rifle on someone, probably leading to death as he might get hit and if the player is smart he is going to move into the building shooting at you, happened many times with me agaisn't Ditzy.

3. This is a big advantage someone in that 3 window has that is pretty terrible to fight agaisn't, you cannot go up unless you take a complete big route which you might encounter players if you are on the bottom window of the 3 area, while the 3 top area player can just go one floor up and still again not allow you to go in, if he has a sniper rifle its ridiculously easy, and if you try to fire at him, not only you have terrible platform but he can just X and you lose your angle to him, he is also capable of using grenades while it is very unlikely for you to be able to, if you do however get on top you can kinda kill hm if he is not fast enought.

4. That is one hell of a camping spot, that really top point is almost not counterable, grenades almost never go up there, the upper player can easily rotate betwen right and left of the camping spot, bottom player can either take a really big route which allows the player to keep camping or maybe even go to both other ceilings to try to get 2 or 3 shots on you which are capable of death or a great sniper shot, if you are on the bottom 4 area you are in a terrible situation, a third player is also very unlikely to help in that case since if he comes from left he has to self boost and one or two bullets can make him fall, and he is also very unlikely to hit someone camping there unless he has a sniper rifle which is a quite rare gun in this map, from right self boost is almost always needed or at least use of swords to jump which makes it so he knows you are there and makes either you fall and very likely die or just kill you easily.

5. This place is also terrible to go up, terrible nade position from bottom player and upper player can easily nade bottom one out, the bottom player has to do a lot of movement using the hole above the top row of blue team players to go up which is easily counered by that penetrable door, a third player can help by coming from top easily tho.

6. This is a specific case, but it happened twice, it is a 3 player case, one player is fighting up left area, another player up right area, and one player is in the middle tunnel section going up, if there is a firefight going top, he can try to flank but it is very likely that any of the players can nade him, jump in the hole, nade the hole, nade each other and then fall back into the cave, many many things, if it is a 4 player scenario and the area is big enought for it to happen, if there is a player bottom you are stuck and very likely dead, the 4 player scenario happened only once and the 3 player scenario also once, not sure how to fix that too, and the thing I mentioned about a top player on the 6 area of the cavern hole going up is true, it is very unlikley for a player to be able to go up and not die, best changes are left side which is still very risky as it takes a lot of time and if the player has a sniper rifle it is almost impossible.

Score of the match:

There were many other players which with the time left, then me and Ditzy decided to do a small analysis, also Ditzy had many more kills but he left at some point and then came back.

Not sure how to fix most problems, I can try to help fixing the 1 area later but now I won't open PB2 and take a screenshot of how to fix it, which might also make it worse if you follow my original idea but it is better trying it out and seeing if it works than letting it as it is.
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