[APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Map Approval Requests

[APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby ditzy » 2 February 2019, 07:01

[1]
- To the best of my knowledge, the following map fits all requirements to be approved: YES / NO
- The following map contains no unfair hidden features: YES / NO
- The following map contains nothing against the PB2 Code of Conduct: YES / NO
- I have read and understand fully the Required Reading for posting a Map Approval Request: YES / NO
- I have read and understand fully the Map Approval Rules: YES / NO

[2]
- Map Name: Toxicity
- Map ID: ditzy-tox
- Link to Map Page: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m=ditzy-tox
- Link to Map Demo: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=2&map=ditzy-tox

[3]
- Give a brief description of the map:

It's an asymmetrical arena map that incorporates natural hazards.

- Why you think the map deserves to be approved:
It's unique to the last few maps that we've had approved last year. Asymmetry, acid, etc.
The map is balanced and fair while being exquisitely a e s t h e t i c.

- Any other comments:
Was going to wait until this got 25 votes but 7 is close enough right?
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby phsc » 9 February 2019, 21:53

and this is a really creative and nice looking map as always ditzy

the weapon choice is different and unique and plays out well with nothing being strong, mostly considering there is a bng which is hard to use and unique and the most common wepaon being the heavy railgun being really strong and capable of fighting the bngs and shotguns with the pistols being relatively bad

i will make this for every map i review
https://prnt.sc/miwrqk


results when playing
http://prntscr.com/miwvrc great start
then i unironically died 10 times
and then i rejoined
http://prntscr.com/miwy24 pretty great
but my style is easily countered, most of the time i get 6 7 kills the ni die 3 times and then get kills again mostly by joining in the middle of a big firefight and taking the rests while killing newcomers with stronger 1 shot guns but a random railgun shot could easily kill me in top battles and bottom battles it wasnt eraly possible
http://prntscr.com/miwy5b

in a general way a great map, im afraid it wont be that popular if approved, but it is indeed a great map to approve i guess
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby Jason Eden » 10 February 2019, 15:17

1) Map name is "toxicity" while ID is "tox". Why?
2) LIghting is terrible. Try to make it look more natural. Avoid using too many lamps.
3) This acid pool generates light, while this one doesn't - http://prntscr.com/mj4b1g
4) These little 2x2 walls don't fit the map. They don't fit any other map as well. They are ugly by default. http://prntscr.com/mj4bo5
5) Letters should go insde the wall. What you did is not how 2D layers work. http://prntscr.com/mj4c8o
6) Some areas don't follow the 4x4 pixel style. http://prntscr.com/mj4cpi http://prntscr.com/mj4cu9 http://prntscr.com/mj4d7u
7) Elevators are desynchronized in multiplayer and you knew it, but you added one nevertheless. http://prntscr.com/mj4dck
8) Teleports make the game unfair. People will pop up from nowhere and get instant kills or get shot quickly. http://prntscr.com/mj4eno http://prntscr.com/mj4hr9 If you want to add teleporters to your map, it's the best to either make them being close to each other, so that the opponent would be able to notice the teleportation and react, or use more complicated teleporting trigger systems (such as the one used in "krow-ftp16_mp") for the same reasons.
9) The elevator backgrounded gap between acid and green colored basic background looks terrible. Do something about it. Maybe connect the green line with acid? http://prntscr.com/mj4esu
10) Why there is a shotgun and BFG in the acid? Acid dissolves matter. Why would someone throw a super high-tech and mega expensive weapon like BFG in the god damn acid? It probably costs more than a human life. Also BFG is quite OP for a map like this.
11) Did you spend 10 seconds making these? They look too simple compared to the lower level of the map http://prntscr.com/mj4gvc http://prntscr.com/mj4h2b
12) This spot is missing an elevator background I think. http://prntscr.com/mj4hgl
13) These walls would look better if they were 2 pixel width instead of 1 pixel. http://prntscr.com/mj4hym http://prntscr.com/mj4i9h
14) Same as 10), but with teleporter. Why would someone install the teleporter into a liquid that dissolves matter? http://prntscr.com/mj4im3
15) Why would an architect who built this "building" or "area" put a giant word sign saying Hazard on the wall? Again, this detail doesn't make any sense. http://prntscr.com/mj4j6h Besides this how radiation hazard sign looks like, it's black and yellow, and it's inside of a triangle most of the times - http://prntscr.com/mj4ys0
16) Couldn't you move a top part 4 pixels higher? It's quite uncomfortable to move here http://prntscr.com/mj4jpl
17) These 4x4 walls just look bad aestehtically. I think you know that. http://prntscr.com/mj4kiv
18) This line is not in the center of basic background. If you follow 4x4 map style, make sure things like this don't appear in your map - http://prntscr.com/mj4ktd
19) Acid kills you in 9.3 seconds. This number is not integer. Doesn't look good aesthetic-wise. "22.5 damage per second" - same thing. http://prntscr.com/mj4lin
20) Too many acid pools. I understand that it is the part of the design, but just think of how many hurt noises it will generate in a full 4x4 match. It will be like a "Noir Lime's hurt sounds" radio station, lmao.

Overall, this is one of those maps where you have to jump from one top spot to another and just spam your shotgun killing everybody below you. If I'm not mistaken monkeyman2535-salvation had the same issue. So I doubt it will be approved, but who knows. Design-wise it is a 5/10 (20 reasons are mentioned above). Even your previous map would get a higher rating from me. Besides I don't like the name you've chosen. It's satirical. If you want to reach the top in map making you should put your heart into your art, not your jokes.
We call for a straightforward approach to the redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, environmental degradation and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby phsc » 10 February 2019, 15:56

Jason Eden wrote:1) Map name is "toxic" while ID is "tox". Why?

Not a valid reason, it has nothing to do with anything this is pure non sequitor related to map approval.
Jason Eden wrote:2) LIghting is terrible. Try to make it look more natural. Avoid using too many lamps.

It is not terrible, it has it's custom style with many triangular shapes, what is your argument? and why don't use many lamps?
Jason Eden wrote:3) This acid pool generates light, while this one doesn't - http://prntscr.com/mj4b1g

Ever considered that maybe it is part of the design? http://prntscr.com/mj52hu not only that gives a interesting effect related to player spawns, maybe it could be some form of light being generated for a specific reason mechanically in these tubes or something, I don't know, but I like the looks.
Jason Eden wrote:4) These little 2x2 walls don't fit the map. They don't fit any other map as well. They are ugly by default. http://prntscr.com/mj4bo5

They fit, not only it makes it look like its almost some form of broken or opened up drain or something like that, gameplay wise they are important since you can walk into one of them and jump without using swords to go up and also not falling in acid, from both sides.
Jason Eden wrote:5) Letters should go insde the wall. What you did is not how 2D layers work. http://prntscr.com/mj4c8o

I'm unironically laughing, imagine that as a wall in the back which follows that platform to the back, which is how we imagine all pb2 maps are, would you paint under it for no reason? I wouldn't, but thing is, IT IS STYLE, it gives it a cool vibe, http://prntscr.com/mj541z see, it follows the pattern, and there is no such thing as 2D layers in PB2 lmao.
Jason Eden wrote:6) Some areas don't follow the 4x4 pixel style. http://prntscr.com/mj4cpi http://prntscr.com/mj4cu9 http://prntscr.com/mj4d7u

It is not a 4x4 pixel art style? the hazard writing is not in 4x4, that line doesn't have to be in 4x4, these light pads with acid are 4x in lenght and that platform you marked near the biohazard writing makes no sense at all, in the first screenshot that line near the acid makes no sense and I already explained the two black blocks.
Jason Eden wrote:7) Elevators are desynchronized in multiplayer and you knew it, but you added one nevertheless. http://prntscr.com/mj4dck

These kind of elevators are almost no problem, and can be easily synced, maybe he synced them I don't know but I see no problem in them, it is not like someone can get an advantage and when playing the map we almost never had anything related to them, but in looks they are really interesting.
Jason Eden wrote:8) Teleports make the game unfair. People will pop up from nowhere and get instant kills or get shot quickly. http://prntscr.com/mj4eno http://prntscr.com/mj4hr9 If you want to add teleporters to your map, it's the best to either make them being close to each other, so that the opponent would be able to notice the teleportation and react, or use more complicated teleporting trigger systems (such as the one used in "krow-ftp16_mp") for the same reasons.

No, they are not, since in all the cases the player who teleports in AND the player who is in the area have no idea of what is going to happen, if someone teleports in and there is someone who is looking into that direction moving into it that person just dies for the railgun, if the person is moving from it, it is pure reaction time skill, one can X and dodge while shooting with the railgun and the other can like jump and shoot with the railgun(the one who teleporter), it is skill and it adds way more interesting elements to the map.
Jason Eden wrote:9) The elevator backgrounded gap between acid and green colored basic background looks terrible. Do something about it. Maybe connect the green line with acid? http://prntscr.com/mj4esu

It is part of that drain-like structure that... is a drain which... is made of some metallic thing that overwrites the paint? why would you paint over a drain with acid underneath?
Jason Eden wrote:10) Why there is a shotgun and BFG in the acid? Acid dissolves matter. Why would someone throw a super high-tech and mega expensive weapon like BFG in the god damn acid? It probably costs more than a human life. Also BFG is quite OP for a map like this.

Maybe they fell there, maybe they are hiding them there, IT ADDS A LOT OF COOL ELEMENTS INTO THE MAP SUCH AS EXPLORATION INTO FINDING THEM, and maybe they are ultra mega technological weapons that are immune to acid as... when you drop guns in acid in PB2 they don't get any kind of problems or start to malfunciton, you can even fire them while in acid, and the BNG is not OP I mentioned it in my post.
Jason Eden wrote:11) Did you spend 10 seconds making these? They look too simple compared to the lower level of the map http://prntscr.com/mj4gvc http://prntscr.com/mj4h2b

Time != quality, these look really cool and different from the style, simple platforms, maybe for building or storing cargo from or for lets say air transport or something, simplicity doesn't mean something is bad.
Jason Eden wrote:12) This spot is missing an elevator background I think. http://prntscr.com/mj4hgl

This is the best critic you have done yet. Good job!
Jason Eden wrote:13) These walls would look better if they were 2 pixel width instead of 1 pixel. http://prntscr.com/mj4hym http://prntscr.com/mj4i9h

I think it gives the map a more unique style, I'd move them 2 pixels op, maybe 1 and make them longer, not lateral tho, I think that is no problem at all, better in looks is also purely subjective.
Jason Eden wrote:14) Same as 10), but with teleporter. Why would someone install the teleporter into a liquid that dissolves matter? http://prntscr.com/mj4im3

And again, maybe the teleporter is immune to acid, made from a lovely futuristic badass material! and it REALLY ADDS A NEXT DIMENSION TO PLAYING, believe it or not, many escapes and cool plays were made using them.
Jason Eden wrote:15) Why would an architect who built this "building" or "area" put a giant word sign saying Hazard on the wall? Again, this detail doesn't make any sense. http://prntscr.com/mj4j6h Besides this how radiation hazard sign looks like, it's black and yellow, and it's inside of a triangle most of the times - http://prntscr.com/mj4ys0

YES BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T DO ANYTHING JUST FOR THE SAKE OF LOOKS! it is really good looking AND PB2 DOESN'T NEED TO BE REALISTIC LOOKING
This is not even an argument, but let me show you some cases in real life where people put random texts in places because they look cool.
http://prntscr.com/mj59v6 is there a practical reason for that? no, it looks badass as deliciously exquisite pizza sauce tho.
Jason Eden wrote:16) Couldn't you move a top part 4 pixels higher? It's quite uncomfortable to move here http://prntscr.com/mj4jpl

It is important considering it makes that not the optimal movement to the top area, also coming from left to top right is more effect from than right to top left but mostly considering if you are right you can keep going right and get into that platform area to go up.
Jason Eden wrote:17) These 4x4 walls just look bad aestehtically. I think you know that. http://prntscr.com/mj4kiv

They are not, your opinion is not better than anyones else, and these make practical sense since there is an elevator that goes up there, so instead of having a 1px hole to let's say, having a chance to mistep in in real life or something you can just walk and then if you are let's say with a crate just push it or soemthing without having problems.
Jason Eden wrote:18) This line is not in the center of basic background. If you follow 4x4 map style, make sure things like this don't appear on your map - http://prntscr.com/mj4ktd

He is not following a 4x4 style? who said someone has to follow a 4x4 style? and wouldn't it be a 2x2 style actually? and isn't that green line 1px? doesn't that fit the area? what the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce are you trying to argue?
Jason Eden wrote:19) Acid kills you in 9.3 seconds. This number is not integer. Doesn't look good aesthetic-wise. "22.5 damage per second" - same thing. http://prntscr.com/mj4lin

I think it has to do with the time to get guns from acid and use the teleporter while also being balanced, I have no problems with that and numbers that are not perfect integers fit a more industrial map-vibe, such as this map's!
Jason Eden wrote:20) Too many acid pools. I understand that it is the part of the design, but just think of how many hurt noises it will generate in a full 4x4 match. It will be like a "Noir Lime's hurt sounds" radio station, lmao.

It generates almost none, I played it and it did reach a 8 tdm player match, a 4x4 would probably be separated into top and bottom but even then, people won't rush that much and railguns will be the best method of killing instead of shotguns as in DM even tho in DM railguns were still more popular, which means people will be more careful with their moves rushing less which means they won't go that much into acid and play safer.

Jason Eden wrote:Overall, this is one of those maps where you have to jump from one top spot to another and just spam your shotgun killing everybody below you.

No, this is really the opposite, top fighting areas almost always don't go near bottom fight areas, they are divided, top areas can easily kill people that are going from bottom with railguns and not shotguns, while people bottom as it is more CQC style just use shotguns agaisn't themselves.
Jason Eden wrote:If I'm not mistaken monkeyman2535-salvation had the same issue. So I doubt it will be approved, but who knows.

It is really different from salvation, completely different map, way less movement oriented, way easier to kill people who are doing that strategy, which is not even possible I think.
Jason Eden wrote:Design-wise it is a 5/10 (20 reasons are mentioned above). Even your previous map would get a higher rating from me.

You unironically had one valid argument in my opinion, your ratings mean nothing, Ditzy has the freedom to do whatever he wants in his map and staff and other players choose if it is good or bad, not you.
Jason Eden wrote:Besides I don't like the name you've chosen. It's satirical. If you want to reach the top in map making you should put your heart into your art, not your jokes.

My favourite book that is more than 500 years old is Auto da Barca do Inferno, the translation would be something like... hell barge top? no idea, anyway, it was written in 1517 by Gil Vicente, a portuguese writter, it ridicularizes stereotypes from their society while being a really well written work, another case is I'd say almost all reply works by Voltaire, highly sarcastic, yet really interesting to read giving interesting knowledge.
Why can't Ditzy do that? art means something, it is pure virtuosity that inspires people or teaches them, this achieves this, the PB2 community is toxic and that is a reality, everyone agrees, I actually don't but meh who cares the vast majority does, and that has been said since deliciously exquisite pizza sauce, 2014? I think the general concept is cool and the name fits.

And I like how combat-wise you have no critics, we shouldn't really take that hard on the visuals of a map, while more on the pragmatic combat approach, after all, stryde-sniper is still the most popular map for this game.
And well, art comes from ars which I think is greek for virtuosity/technique, your edit of let's say, urbanwar, is realy simple in the looks, and this is more complex, thus being more virtuous, so if we follow the original meaning of the word, this map has more artistic value than your edit of urbanwar.

I guess, that's it.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby Silent Aurora » 10 February 2019, 16:28

It's a decent map, the only issues I have are some of the thin walls. It's not a design issue, its a gameplay issue. People can abuse that by spamming the pistol through these walls to get kills, this was a huge problem with pixelvoxels old pistal map design. Jason's point about people just running across the top and spamming downwards just like in monkeymans original salvation map is a valid point and I can see it happening here. In comeptitive gameplay, people will literally do this and it has been proven before with maps with similar designs (named two already). I also speak from experience and perspective from a competitive player since thats what i would do lmao.

It's a good map design though, i personally think Jason's points are too picky and just a matter of different preference.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby phsc » 10 February 2019, 16:43

Silent Aurora wrote:Jason's point about people just running across the top and spamming downwards just like in monkeymans original salvation map is a valid point and I can see it happening here. In comeptitive gameplay, people will literally do this and it has been proven before with maps with similar designs (named two already). I also speak from experience and perspective from a competitive player since thats what i would do lmao.

I and Ditzy played the map and it reached 8 players, that monekyman-like strategy was not very effective, mostly considering how many angles one can kill someone doing it and how many spawns are on the top area in an actual gameplay, as you can also ignore the top part and only fight bottom, it works but for very limited periods of time as if you die it becomes really chaotic on top as many people try to do it, in a 1v1 or 1v1v1 scenario it could happen tho, and that is the state of most ranked matches these days, but I think this map would be great for unranked map playing, of course Ditzy can do a few edits and maybe try to counter it, but the guns that are present in the map, the shotgun has too much of a innacuracy and considering the HP value it is not as effective as the alien shotgun was in salvation, the railgun is a one shot weapon that if that one person misses it is very likely that person might die, and well...

Silent Aurora wrote:It's a decent map, the only issues I have are some of the thin walls. It's not a design issue, its a gameplay issue. People can abuse that by spamming the pistol through these walls to get kills, this was a huge problem with pixelvoxels old pistal map design.


The pistol argument can be a problem, but most of the time it wasn't that big of a deal and one could quite easily flank most spots where you can do what you mentioned, but I'd consider it a valid argument and Ditzy should do some testing and then change it if he sees the need for, and of course, as staff should do and have done according to my experience, you guys playtest the maps and well, if it doesn't happen or if it does but is not overly effective, what is the problem?

Silent Aurora wrote:It's a good map design though, i personally think Jason's points are too picky and just a matter of different preference.

It is indeed a matter of preference, his arguments are not even arguments and his points are purely picky because well, Ditzy and I we played with him yesterday, not only we got higher scores on his own urbanwar version but we also did critize it and he ignores critics because either his ego is too high, or he is afraid of them, or maybe a weird combination of both.
But it is great to see that staff is taking a look at maps for approval, and I think your points are mostly valid and I'm sure Ditzy will make a good conclusion out of them fixing the possible problems.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby Jason Eden » 10 February 2019, 16:44

Silent Aurora wrote:It's a good map design though, i personally think Jason's points are too picky and just a matter of different preference.

Design related complaints are indeed picky. But only because I wanted this reincarnation of Reject and Terabrion in PB2 to reach perfection before his skills stop developing. Those two guys couldn't do it, so my hope is that Ditzy won't make the same mistake. This is the reason why I decided to spend my time to write a review - to help Ditzy avoid the same mistakes that led Reject and Terabrion nowhere.

As for the matter of different preferences, it's not true. I do not expect an inexperienced map developer like you to understand. But I hope Ditzy will.

Anyway, I ask you to pay attention to the teleporting issue as well.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby phsc » 10 February 2019, 16:56

Jason Eden wrote:Design related complaints are indeed picky. But only because I wanted this reincarnation of Reject and Terabrion in PB2 to reach perfection before his skills stop developing.

Why, why are they the best? one can say stryde is the best map maker of Plazma Burst, it is OPINION, not an absolute truth, we can do things such
Jason Eden wrote:Those two guys couldn't do it, so my hope is that Ditzy won't make the same mistake. This is the reason why I decided to spend my time to write a review - to help Ditzy avoid the same mistakes that led Reject and Terabrion nowhere.

It is not a mistake, mistkaes are subjective, Reject and Terabrion are not gods as you treat them as, they are just some people who made maps and in my opinion they were not perfect or anything, Ditzy is better than them in my opinion, as most modern map makers are, it is like those people who say that Beethoven is worse than Bach because BEETHOVEN MADE A FUGUE THAT HAS LESS VOICES AND IS MORE DISSONANT but the general concept is different, the empirical experience one receives is different, if we take pure virtuosity of the art of composing Bach is better, but the experience most receive with Beethoven is better, in technique, Beethoven is probably harder to play, one is not better than another yet different, and you can't understand that.
Jason Eden wrote:As for the matter of different preferences, it's not true. I do not expect an unexperienced map developer like you to understand. But I hope Ditzy will.

WHY IS IT NOT TRUE, you always keep ignoring me because you know you are wrong and you have no arguments, you just ignore me because you know I am right and you don't want people to know I am right by not beign able to reply to my critics, DITZY WON'T, I TALK TO HIM CONSTANTLY AND HE ALSO THINKS IN A SIMILAR WAY TO ME IN THIS MATTER, and he is not like you, he is not a intolerant authoritarian ridiculous jerk who thinks all you say is an absolute truth and can't handle criticism while saying "you're a perfectionist".

Jason Eden wrote:Anyway, I ask you to pay attention to the teleporting issue as well.

It is not a issue, most approved maps have concepts like these and they are not an issue.


You are just going to ignore me anyway, because you cannot handle critics, but I enjoy doing this, just feeds the little bit of an ego I have just by looking at how ridiculous you are, don't take this as an ad hominem, yet try to escape the deep dark abyss of ignorance.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby ditzy » 10 February 2019, 20:33

Silent Aurora wrote:It's a decent map, the only issues I have are some of the thin walls. It's not a design issue, its a gameplay issue. People can abuse that by spamming the pistol through these walls to get kills, this was a huge problem with pixelvoxels old pistal map design.

The thin walls were an intentional design choice because I wanted pistols to be able to serve some purpose within the map. However, if it becomes a problem I'll see what I can do about it.

Jason's point about people just running across the top and spamming downwards just like in monkeymans original salvation map is a valid point and I can see it happening here.

The openings between the top and bottom are pretty small and the shotguns in this map have a very large spread, so I don't really see an issue there. As with the point above, I'll look into it further.

Jason Eden wrote:[4x4 design complaints]

I find that 4x4 design can be very constricting on the shapes that you can make on a map so for this map I bent the 4x4 where I felt was suitable.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby Incompetence » 11 February 2019, 00:46

ITT: nitpicking

I don't have much to say in regards to the map considering I didn't get to test it extensively enough. I do like how spacious and open it is imo. not too open, but not too tight in space either basically

Jason Eden wrote:10) Why there is a shotgun and BFG in the acid? Acid dissolves matter. Why would someone throw a super high-tech and mega expensive weapon like BFG in the god damn acid? It probably costs more than a human life.

occam's razor says "gameplay purposes"

realism says "maybe that acid isn't strong enough to corrode those things"

best not to question the realism of things in a game that's anything but realistic
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST]ditzy-tox

Postby ditzy » 14 February 2019, 03:05

Made a few small changes to the map, mostly in regard to Jason's critiques.

Full change log
Spoiler: Show More
  • Shadowmap size increased to 8 (shadows are less sharp and transition between shadows feel more natural)
  • Portnade count increased to 2
  • Grenade count reduced to 1 (high health negates usefulness of grenades)
  • Changed a few background colours
  • Repositioned/redesigned a few wall placements


----

Silent Aurora wrote:It's a decent map, the only issues I have are some of the thin walls. It's not a design issue, its a gameplay issue. People can abuse that by spamming the pistol through these walls to get kills, this was a huge problem with pixelvoxels old pistal map design.

I assume you're talking about pixelvoxel-own_you? Players on this map have almost double the health compared to that map, and this map has a lot more thick walls. Requires more playtesting but I personally don't think pistol spam is a problem.
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