The current state of map making is tragic

Feedback & Ideas about Custom Maps.

Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Nyove » 4 November 2020, 06:05

Hey everyone,

In terms of custom maps, there are actually a lot more kind of maps you can make and experiment with the public.

Most notably - custom maps that feature an alternative gameplay.
From gun game, to RPG with stats, capture the flag, abilities, racing map, airplane fight, 1v7, ghost vs civil, glitch, etc..

Try to come up with something new for custom maps- you may be the next big map maker, responsible for spawning an entire genre of maps :D

Best regards,
Nyove
Proud to be part of something meaningful.
Need any assistance? Join the PB2 discord server at https://discord.com/invite/Bhe9rNz or raise a support ticket at https://www.plazmaburst2.com/support

Contact me on discord for quickest reply possible.

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby xElijah » 4 November 2020, 17:06

phsc wrote:
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It being close to dead is actually very relevant, because stryde-sniper might be the map that is keeping it alive, and removing it might kill it for real, and this is a big and dangerous risk, if you want the map removed, go ahead and make the forum posts and all, a lot of people have tried it, maybe you can be the one to do it, I think it is extremely unlikely, mostly considering how the approval criteria will soon be changing and the map will be more fit for approval.

If they are playing the not approved map, they are not playing the approved map, very simple, it was also not a map that could be used for farming and such, as stryde-sniper is quite hard to use for farming, there are many maps that do a better job these days, but the current system makes farming not that effective, by farming I mean grinding kills, for some reason farming is used only when it is like two players colaborating here and I think that is a weird way to use the term.

It literally allows people to play other maps, you can just go there and create the map, it allows people to play a map they like, it is also a map that has a decent skillcap, it allows you to imagine where players are and you get a ton from playing it a ton, that is one of the reasons it is popular, other than the fact it is very flashy and such, most popular approved maps are like that, it is a map that has it's merits and is not only popular because it is the most played map, of course that adds to it's popularity, and there are similar maps, and people would just switch to them as I have said, also, why do players just not check other maps and such? this makes me think they are very low on openess, because they are not open to other maps! while some are even very similar to stryde-sniper, forcing them would not solve the issue, because they would not be open, maybe those who play for rank 1 and such that play the map, but that is not the majority of players even in modern times, and as has happened in the past, they would just play the custom map version, which is actually already played and there are a ton of remakes and copies! the only way would be removing all maps similar to stryde-sniper, the issue is that, then people that like that style of map simply wouldn't play approved maps, it is a game that the vast majority of players play for fun, it is a game after all, and that would just hurt ranked and even unranked, you might say that I cannot know if people play for fun and such, and that is hard to know, but if they do not play for fun, then competitive play should be more active and such, right? and it is not, and it is also extremely easy to get on the top ranks, some friends of mine who are generally considered not good players, did get on decent places on the top 100, so that is why I think that.
Mentioning Kant was because you made it look like you had a different view on opinions and such, which could lead you in the direction I think is right for epistemology and such.

I literally explained it, and that kind of example happens everywhere, go back to my example talking about people wanting to kill others and banning firearms or meele weapons, people want what they want, they might adapt what they want but they also might adapt how they get what they want, this is of course not really possible to measure, but they will not completely change what they like, and again, they would just play similar sniper maps.

You actually can know! not in a formal way, you cannot really go out and get the statistics, and if you did try to do that a ton of players would just say they do not want to take tests and such, but you can compare the players you meet and how they act and how they behave to get an idea, I explained a bit on this, everything is speculation but I really think it would all fail.

This is a bit complicated but, uncentralization for this makes it even more effective, in a TLDR it is because of the different mentalities for different goals and different tastes and opinions, centralization really limits that, centralization vs uncentralization is an extremely complicated topic, but I think if you are into reading you could check some of the works from Friedrich Hayek to understand some of the reasons I think that centralization is bad in basically every situation.

Who punishes those that punish? who punishes the dictator? the issue gets to that, if the staff team, the absolute top of Plazma Burst, are the corrupt ones, things are really bad! and this also gets to other issues, Eric is kind of very distant and might not even realize things are going wrong and even then not think it is an issue because of misinterpretation and such, I believe that has happened in the past to some extent, these days you can but back then I am pretty sure it was a rule, I am unsure if it was written out or even formal, but at times, people can apply rules that are not formal! that kind of thing happens all the time with authority positions, just look at Wasted Time muting people for saying "horny" in PBC.

I am not pushing them to an absurd, and I agree, but Silent Aurora did have approved maps! kinda funny right, and back then both of them could approve maps, hell, phsc-sniper did get reviewed by Doomwrath, not only him, but he was the first, also this was all back then, so things worked out a bit different and people such as Silent Aurora were more active in such actions, mostly considering that there was no approval team and a ton of staff members did not really deal with map approval.

I'm talking about the past mostly, back then, now the issue differs, this is irrelevant when it comes to corruption tho.

The issue I think is more about the people that end up making maps, not that we do not have map makers, Mrnat is the best example, he did make approved maps, but now he makes custom ones! I am unsure if I consider CH55 a creative map maker, he is a good map maker but creative is not what I mostly correlate with him.

Well, the map did get approved! and I do think it goes agaisn't the approvalc riteria, one of the reasons I do not complain about that is because I am agaisnt the approval criteria! that was just one example, also even then, it is not a dichotomy, it is kind of a scale, a map might not really have an extremely long line of sight but have generally speaking long ones, and this is where things get a bit relative and even subjective when it comes to some criterias and why I often think that centralization is bad, because the approval team has their definitions of aspects, that might greatly differ from others, back then you could ask different people and in general it all rounds out, now you cannot, and they hold more power.

This is not about the quality of map makers! this is about the quality of map making tools and features! back then you were limited by backgrounds and default decorations, now you can make everything fancy and such! progress did objectively happen with updates, but compared to the difference betwen the first Max Teabag maps and the later Cahir maps, there was much more progress!

That is an individual map maker, I'm talking about map makers in general, compare reject/Stryde/Cahir to kubakuba/avre, individual map makers do generally progress, but you should take the average from a period of time, not only the average but the best, and see it compared to back then, this is kind of anachornism, and this is a very common mistake I see happening.

I do not think that, why have multiple weapons then, having only one helps newbies to play ranked matches, see the issue? ranked should be a place for the elite, for good players to shine, not for noobs to have a good time, that is what custom maps are for, and at times unranked, this will soon be changing, both ranked-unranked and the noob-helping rules.

Fallacious! a top 200 is just the 200 best players, some players can be better than others, but the expression and how different the best are from the worst is a very relevant thing, let me take two games with different skill caps that show that, in League of Legends a good player destroys a bad player, in DOTA 2 a good player rapes a bad player, because DOTA makes it way easier for a good player to have an advantage over a bad player, of course that happens in all cases, because one of them is bad and the other is good, the thing is, this allows for a bigger line betwen good and bad, and I think that is very healthy, it allows for an extreme virtuous elite to be created, and you can then see plays that make you go PogChamp, this is a thing PB2 lacks, I asked some experienced players about that, "did you ever see a play that made you go PogChamp in PB2?", all said no, I think this is really bad game design and it greatly hurts competitive play, such as ranked, an aspect I think made the game more popular back then, mostly approved/unranked when compared to custom maps, or the past equivalents of such names, is that the average player was inferior, because I believe the average age of the PB2 player was lower, and of course their experience and the general experience and knowledge players had was inferior, so a player like Flashy or Legendary Hero would have a vast advantage over others, of course map had problems, but they were good! and now it seems like the difference betwen the best and the worst is not that big as well.

They do and I just explained that, camping is to an extent a skill but it should be easy to counter, and often it is not, a camping spot is not bad, it should just have counterplay, a good example is what I did with raffine-urbanwar's famous top right camping spot in my remake of the map, fair is kind of a weird word, is it fair if a good player can be decently easily beaten by a bad player? or is it fair if that happens? this is very subjective and this is what I think makes this discussion happen.

Yes, but in some specific map designs it might happen, or something that requires wall jumping and such, and here is the thing, if a noob player sees a good one getting up there like that, they might try to think how to do it! and that increases the general quality of the average player of the game, a good example are again MOBAs, you see a good player doing an item build, if you want to be good you might just try it out and wow, it might just be better than what you did! this is way more visible when games are kind of new and such (original DOTA) and mostly when players are very new, and I've seen that, and I've seen that happen in PB2! and I think that is a very healthy thing, the biggest reason I think the average player these days is decent compared to the best is not really because of the criteria, but mostly because most players are old, but getting those who never played PB2, and quite a decent amount of people I know (around 10), literally all tried to figure out how I did stuff, of course they are older than PB2s intended public, but when I was a kid I did figure it out and my friends, who also were kids, did figure it out, I've actually never met a player that is unable to self boost or wall jump (a friend of mine took literal hours to figure out how to do it tho), you might say curse of knowledge but I am aware that not all players are like me, but this gets to an issue that is, what if the player cannot switch weapons? limit maps to only one, all of that I said before, the line for what is easy is in my opinion too extreme at the moment, and it does limit map making, I've never seen a map that requires or allows waterboosting, because it is a very hard technique and it is extremely hard to execute right, a map maker can make so people can go to where that leads, but just adding counterplay (being able to shoot at such place) should be enough I think.

Just wondering, did you ever participate in any competitive PB2 activities? more formal ones, with generally speaking, good players, because it kind of shows that the skill-cap for the game can be pretty damn high but maps might end up being unfair to an extent.

I am unsure, but this gets to an issue, Eric often does not check that kind of rule himself, he actually often does not check things in general himself! and maybe even disagrees with how things work at times, this is a very awkward interaction, at times staff act in ways that I think Eric is agaisn't in my experience talking to him, but he is just so distant, I do try to let him know about all of that and I did see some action happen in the past, this kind of goes back to the corruption argument, Eric does not know everything and staff can at times not be very nice or act according to what he wants when he does not even know what is going on, another thing is that Eric might not remember that rule and now be agaisnt it, this might look overly specific but I remember that happening with Eric!

That is fallacious! he might now know about it! and he might have changed his opinion and not remember, you assume that he knows it, and that he would remove it if he knew about it if he disagreed (this is kind of an awkward thing, he disagrees with the rule but trust the person behind them?), map approval guidelines criticism being good is not relevant to changes happening in the game! this also assumes that people get to read it, or that people bother reading it, Ramanujan was an absurdly good mathematician that was almost completely ignored! you assume that quality ALWAYS generates results, when it does not, it also gets to the issue that staff at times is just not open to criticism and does not care, this seems to be changing but back then, mostly realy back then, that seemed to be the case.
And yes, you can give an advantage to a good player, but it does limit such advantage, and even then, if an advantage of position is exclusive and it has counterplay, why do you actually need to be able to reach that position? a bad player being able to get to all places of a map seems kind of irrelevant, if another player will have an advantage getting there and counterplaying him, is that even fair? you kind of illude the bad player at thinking an innefective move is effective, and this is even worse since they are probably not the smartest and might not realize that while not having the mechanical knowledhe about the game.

I think there is a big issue here, the approval team, and also the staff team, often do not agree on maps and topics! hell, at times they are very different in how they see things, I think you trust them too much, they can often be very biased, literally irrational, and literally ignore logic or discussions, anyways, you like examples so here is one, stryde-sniper, Creeperhunter55 wants it like removed from the game and wants it to burn in hell, Stryde is the creator and well, likes the map, there is this kind of inconsistency with the team that makes me really doubt it to an extent, I did see how they work and I also have issues with it, reporting or letting people know changed nothing! actually even some staff members agree with me! but nothing changes, nothing ever changes.

What if they do not want to discuss or are unable to? that literally has happened!

In last case Coda can make an edit request stating that micropixels are allowed. Either way I did not look after the approval process of it and I cannot use your representation of those events as proof of anything.
You can just check the poll, Coda did adapt his map because he wanted the map approved over the different looks, but it was a creative and innovative decoration technique.

Autism is not inherently negative, mentioning what is already understood/assumed in a conversation/dialogue/debate, such as opinions being subjective, is a thing I commonly see people that are autistic do, it is not an insult.

It is not an insult, it is not an assumption, it is a trait, kind of taking a common example I see coming as practical application of what some of the criteria talks about (DSM-5).

He did not, staff members can lock maps without commenting, it is just agaisnt procedure, but then there are no rules for procedure and in my experience some staff members seem to do that more, it has happened in the past.

He did report it, it was likely Stryde, nothing happened out of it, there is also an issue with Balem being banned for farming, but that should not make his map invalid for approval, mostly considering there was no reply! also Balem seems to have some conflict with some staff members, kind of an awkward situation.

I do not think punishment is necessary,, if we are working with different definitions there is no real way to have a discussion unless someone changes their definition, but your definition of corruption is irrelevant to what I am talking about, I am refering to the concept I just explained, use it, this is a very common issue, in economics Keynesians define inflation in a way and then Chicago schoolers define it in another and they keep arguing with different definitions, it is pathetic and innefective and you can just use the concept behind the definition, a word refers to a concept, if you did not really understand this, read some of Wittgenteins' works on language.

But is that really good? if the maps fits the criteria then hes just speeding the process, but undoubtable good is kind of impossible, people always find flaws in things, not to mention that an issue might appear later, this is why I think discussion is good, it would still be corruption, him not being punished is not relevant to it being corruption, and the same could happen with a map a ton of people consider bad, in the case of Tempus nothing would happen because he holds too much power, if someone like Ditzy did that, he probably could even lose his staff position, power is the issue.

There is no formal rule, but here is the thing, a very common act is that, there are a ton of not written out rules for PB2 and staff oftens do not write them out, this is actually getting more and more common, and when issues rise they write it out, from paulstin's ban to map approval criteria rework, this makes it very hard to work with rules in an objective way and this is my biggest criticism to everything that sets how PB2 works, and one of the reasons I do not really trust staff or the approval team.

You realy did not understand what I said! it was a figure of language, YOU WANT EVERYBODY TO BE CORRUPT is making fun of how ridiculous what you are saying is, you are moving goalposts again to an extent, the way you wrote it all out, you do not want but you are saying that it should be a valid method of achieving what they want, the problem is, corruption is never a good thing! why have rules if they can be broken, you do say people should do it, so you are defending it, I did not call you corrupt, I do not see where you got that from, maybe I miswrote or misexpressed something, but I am pretty sure you just misunderstood it, it is not a personal attack, this makes me think you actually fit autism! not in an offensive way, but the way you interpret things seems to differ from how the average person does, I am not literally saying that, you take it literally, got the issue?

Well, if corruption is used, then it is not required, see the issue? if it goes that far, if rules are being broken, then approval criteria... are rules and well, why should these not be broken? they actually are because you are skipping the procedures for map approval.

You are literally using a different definition from what oyu used before and taking mine to a ridiculous point, which is completely different from what I said, literally strawman, this part of the discussion seems to be over, also serious or not is irrelevant, I want a serious discussion, it being a flash game is completely irrelevant, you have no real points when it comes to this argument, unless you make something with actual value there is nothing for me to add to it.

The way you define corrupt is different from the way people genereally define it, you are the issue, not me, words are just variables, use the concept.

Again, nobody cares about staff not properly following rules or doing a good job, actually some staff do care but these do not hold much power, I already pretty much explained this.

I literally explained how it is, it is not a false assumption, I said that "Max Teabag talking about the issue makes it different", it did make it different, a ton of people make a ton of posts about issues and it all gets ignored, people have that ad hominem mentality in their head, it is a cognitive bias that is made very socially accepted, it is a natural human thing, I literally did not understand the rest of what you said here, I agree... but how is it relevant? it is all about things being seen or not, an issue for some generic guest is generally not seen as a big issue, an issue for the legendary Max Teabag often is, this is about visibility, people do not care about the content if they do not even bother clicking at the post? can you explain what you are saying better?

FALLACIOUS! my mom is one example, you do not know for sure if taking the average players allows that to happen, it is just an example, taking the literal worst, of course someone with brain damage will not be able to do that, it is completely irrelevant, the person probably wouldnt even be able to play the game, it is not the wrong result, it does not mean everybody can do it, but it does not mean that everybody cannot do it, you do not take it as a negative by default, you cannot know, negative as default only works in specific fields because of how knowledge works, this goes back to the epistemology arguments I made earlier, this is not science, where there is need for things to be falseable, or at least I am not working with such criteria because you cannot really experiment and all of that, other criterias of science do not apply here, so this is not a scientific discussion, I do not know any other epistemic frameworks that assume that a thing is a negative instead of a neutral.

May I mention that it was an additional argument, I actually think that the criteria are pathetic, who cares if a player can grab the ledge, they can still shoot at the top of it, throw a grenade, there is no inherent advantage, hell it is even an open position, I think the rule is dumb and it actually basically never applies, yeah a 7 year old that is very dumb might not be able to go up there, why is that even an issue? that person is going to be terrible at the game anyway, and the good player will still have an advantage in that case.

You keep talking about that, I did understand that, for deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sake, getting statistics for that is extremely complicated because it is impossible, I did ask some people I know, if they ahve ever seen a player unable to grab a ledge, and this actually made me think of a big issue, a thing that often makes players unable to do actions is lag, some people cannot run PB2, this makes self boosting or actually, jumping the way you are supposed to, break, or even jumping break (this is kind of bizarre but I did experiment, and around 3 FPS jumping seems pretty impossible), so does the rule include everyone? why only jumping while holding a gun? what if the person cannot jump? isn't the line too arbitrary? this is also a point I was talking about.

This rule is very likely about to change, as most of the approval criteria are, I got this information from the approval team, I do think Eric cares about those who are bad at the game, but why at that exact level? why holding a gun? Eric tries to be inclusive, and he is, but why should ranked matches, approved matches, be like that? the place for skill expression, the more serious gameplay, this is actually weird because it is unranked, but it counts kills and deaths in your account, this kind of inconsistency seems to be what the new approval criteria changes might change in other aspects of the game, I will ask Eric what he thinks about this rule, if he replies (might take a while) I will let you know, but a ton of staff members I know think that rule is dumb, and the vast majority of players as well.

Why should ranked have to follow such rules? this gets to another issue, approved maps apply to ranked and unranked, unranked actually is ranked, because it objectively ranks you for criteria, kills and deaths and such, kind of weird, also, why should reaching all places of a map even be relevant?

I completely disagree, you cannot make areas limited to only high skilled players, camping should not be the problem, also, counterplay is a different thing, you might be able to shoot at it for example, but only reach it with skill.
This also gets to other issues, lasers are not intuitive, same for gravitators, showing the game to people who are not used to them, some often think that lasers do not kill, and some often think that gravitators do nothing, actually the same dude who couldn't wall jump, who is a close friend of mine, was one to believe that, so these two decorations and what they do are not very intuitive and harm new players, is the game really good for newbies? it is the same kind of intuition, but that one actually requires knowledge from before, people generally know that lasers hurt, and gravitators do make some particles going up and such, but one could think they are just a background object or something, or that it might not make them go up, see the issue? I think it is rather arbitrary and not a thing people thinked about a lot, and I've seen it happen in my experience! also if anyone reading this is from cult of use know that the person that was unable to wall jump and such was Jonas, my friend who is in that server.

Already explained.

It is an example of how arbitrary and kind of dumb it all is, also I am pretty sure nobody asked for that rule about jumping with weapons, and you and maybe Creeperhunter55 might be the only people who think that rule is good that I've ever seen

I think PB2 should be compared to other games, just like maps should be compared to other maps, one of the issues is that, maybe the game is just... bad? not up to date and that is what is making it die? and I think that is kind of why, so some changes to ranked and competitive play might help, this is a lot about game design as I've said.
Approval criteria are probably going to change as I said, soon you might see the stuff, if it is all made in public posts, argue! that is a very healthy thing, but generally people seem to agree with the changes and there are a lot of arguments for all of it.

Argumentation techniques, you kind of don't seem to be able to understand the way I make some of my points, it is not as literal as you might like things, this is common with some philosophers and such, some which I ofte like, so I kind of got that habit.
WELL, here is the thing buddy, you did not mention that until now, the micropixel argumentation kind of ended here and you made it look like you did not accept the point that people would change to stryde-sniper2, at least that is how I interpreted all of it, also I did not say you want people to be corrupt, you kind of say people should be, want != should, I already explained that part tho.

Camping is actually a skill, there is fair and unfair camping, this is kind of a weird mentality people have, camping in fair spots is a skill and a play style, it just has to be fair, possible to counterplay, glitching is a more complicated topic, but a good example of a glitch that is a skill per se (glitching in PB2 is generally passing walls and such) is self boosting, which is generally considered a skill, professionalism does involve map layout, you cannot camp if there are no camp spots!

I agree, I did tests for that in most of my maps, mostly phsc-urbanwar, where I tried to solve unfair issues of the original, reworked the visuals and made so people can do extremely complicated tricks to get to places faster and have an advantage, and of course, made so both sides have the same advantage so it is not unfair for one of them, but self boosting is a thing that allows players to have an advantage, and camping is a lot about learning the map! you might know where people are, or might come from, so you stay at a position you can kill them in a more effective way, the issue is when you cannot really kill the camper, and often you can flank them, or just kill them by knowing where they are, counterplay!

I think the issue comes when you compare very skilled players, with decently skilled ones, a medium and a good player, that is where I think the difference in PB2 is very small, and most ranked players, as in, consistent ones, are mostly the "elite" and people that play for top 100.

The thing is, the general idea of ranked is that it is the only place you can get skill points/player points/whatever they are called these days, and sadly you cannot play approved maps as custom maps, unranked is mostly played for fun, yeah, and this is a thing that is being discussed in staff as far as I know, it is a place where beginners generally fall into, also the elite kind of directly have to play ranked, because they need to keep their positions and such, they end up being the main target.

That is true, but should the approved maps be limited to that? what if I want to make a map that is mostly made for some of the best players, that requires good skill to be played well, well, I cannot, and the good players play... ranked! in general, I mean some do not, but generally they do, it is kind of useless, it also makes learning some skills useless, a good example, waterboosting, I am even unsure if it is possible these days, but it is a hard skill, that was never rewarded.

I see a lot of difference in a ton of aspects, and GENERALLY, newer APPROVED maps are good, but not the older approved maps that are still approved, the issue comes with maps like shenko-sewers instead of the stryde-snipers, stryde-sniper is a map I think rewards skill, one of the best examples is eg-rw, it is a map where experience and knowing how to self boosts comes in handy, how many maps are like that these days?

Yes, but this gets to an issue, old games generally have mostly a more experienced playerbase that is mostly competitive, the ultimate example could be MMOs that are now old or like Heroes of Newerth for the MOBA genre, people do play custom maps more, yeah, just like always.

A part of it did, is it the same game without that aspect? what it kind of was intended to be, a shooter, not a game where you play a ton of weird custom map stuff.

It is more about game design than the games themselves, it is more about the general mentality behind the games than the game itself, I could compare to CS GO as well, but I know little about it, or other shooters.

Well, Balem did get banned and planned on leaving the game, he got his map approved but did not get the other ones approved and got extremely frustrated, I am still here, but am I making approved maps? I actually am, but did not intend to, if I did not get in more agreement with the approval team and actually talk to them, I would've just stopped with map making, I think that getting AN approved map is not the issue, getting A map approved is different, and should be the discussion, the number of maps do not really matter at least I think, it is even more frustating to get a map approved and then not get other ones, because generally speaking, you should be a better map maker and all, with more experience, of course the map can be bad, but what if you think it is not?

I agree with him and did play a ton of maps, and I agree, 4th requeriment is a big issue.

Yes, I agree, the issue is that some rules are too limiting and not about quality, I've already explained all of this, getting a map approved is hard, and I do think that is good as well, the issue is that some good maps have a hard time being approved for dumb reasons, such as too many lamps!

I actually had some very interesting ideas when it comes to this, turning into a bat would be really fun! probably would not work, but don't you think taht it could make a very fun map that could have good skill expression as well? a problem is that it probably would not be very intuitive and of course, laggy and buggy, and this is what I am trying to solve with some of my ideas! keep checking my posts if you are curious, maybe soon I might finish one of them.

I actually talk to Mrnat! and he has said a single thing a ton of times, he thinks that creating arenas, like positioning walls and such, and making decorations and such, is extremely boring! and that is why he does not do that, I myself think that custom maps are way cooler, another example is Max Teabag, his maps made for approval are not that good these days, but he is a very good map maker, who ended up making a ton of amazing custom maps, and for his time, he was a very good map maker for approved maps, I mean they did not really exist at his time tho.

That is what I am saying! that is the biggest issue, there are limitations, you cannot make a ton of interesting stuff for approval, because it is all limited, you cannot use triggers for more advanced stuff.

I would say I am a pretty close friend of Lonewolf56/Hexagon, at least when it comes to PB2, and well, he mostly has little time for PB2 map making, and I am not sure exactly why he did not make more approved maps other than that because he likes his classwar maps, I will actually ask him right now! but then I am going to reply to this and maybe add the reason later as an edit or in the next reply.

I think Cahir is the best example, because he might be the best map maker ever, considering his time, a ton of people think that, same for Max Teabag, Max I am pretty sure did that because he thinks making custom maps is just more interesting, I do have a way of talking to him as well and could ask, but I am pretty sure that most of Max' maps for combat were made before approval was even a feature and the game was probably very limited, I asked him his favorite approved maps and he mentioned that, but if you want, I can ask him, but back to Cahir, a lot of people think that Cahir might just be the best map maker ever, I am pretty sure Stryde is one to say, and some think that Stryde might even be the best map maker (he made stryde-sniper after all), Cahir was just too good for his time in everything, and I think he is by far the best example of how someone can be in the future and still have maps from 2011 that were better than ones made many years after, and still are not bad today!

His most modern maps are actually for singleplayer, the other ones fit approval criteria but I think they are for BoZ events or... just for playing? I don't know and I am not in BoZ anymore and I do not have access to him or talk to him, but he did work on singleplayers maps lately and most of his combat ones are a bit older.

I already replied to this, often they do not argue, often I get ignored, often they make some of the most fallacious or straight up bad logic points ever, and some times a mix of all of these.

This is not what I said! yes it is a good thing and I think the fact taht the map approval team is a circlejerk is very bad, the criteria are the problem, some of the criteria, not the process itself, but the centralization kind of is!

Let's see, head mods do not deal with approval, actually head mods are literally mods with more experience, admins, Kiriakos often takes the side of the staff team member, Kiriakos seems to just be too passive in general, Doom does not deal with map approval, Tempus is quite inactive, but yeah, I could talk to him, in the past he seemed to at times not really consider discussions and arguments and instead take on the views of some staff members or experienced players, so probably it all would fail, Eric is just too distant and probably would not act if not extreme, and well, I did talk to higher staff about some issues in the past and well, basically nothing happened!

About gunmods, this is a very interesting topic, Doom once made a forum post with the approval criteria, and he said that slight guns mods were accepted, and I was all happy because it allows for more balance, mostly considering back then there were fewer weapons, so differnet DPS/RoF/bullet type/damage per bullet possibilities, but the criteria made by Eric did not say that was allowed, and when making a forum post with modded weapons for approval, you could not get a map approved with modified weapons, phsc-urbanwar had different visuals and was not approved because of that originally!

Seems to be this, I think someone asked Eric about the issue, I do not remember exactly.

Not bugs, complex triggerwork is turning players into bats! yes, literally, that example is a bit bad, but a lot can be done! the possibilities are infinite, and I have some ideas I am trying to execute in a good way, I already talked about this.

You cannot make a map that has a place with exclusive access, and I think that counterplay is the issue, already explained, also the swamp idea is not bad, I actually had a map with that idea! it was based on errr_arrr-swampbase but made for combat in a good way, but shouldnt the gameplay be more innovative than the visuals? is not that what matters most? I think that is what matters most for approved maps, not visuals, the gameplay itself!

I actually think that is why Max Teabag made some of his maps (I will ask!), it might be why Mrnat makes his (I will ask!), and again, it is a very common thing in a lot of fields, computer science! and I am pretty sure a ton of map makers end up being programmers or related, it is very similar after all.

Just like game consoles were back then, and we still had the original Final Fantasy for such limited software, it is limiting, I agree, but what game is exactly like PB2, a 2D game and such, with easy access, with such freedom? I know none, none with such an amazing and open editor, Eric is just amazing for making this.

It would be fake proof, but I would "win" the argument, see the issue with proof here? you cannot have proof! it is impossible! it all can be faked and all in this case, and I agree, caring or not about LDR should not matter, the issue is that, if your goal is LDR, you will do the most effective map possible for approval, and that involves not spending a otn of time thinking about cool features and ideas, and instead repeating the same map, and well, that is what happens with such people!
Also, you did not say "most Creative people" or "some Creative people", you said "Creative people", by default, it is socially accepted that "Creative people" speaks for all, if I say "Sniper maps are boring" I am speaking for all sniper maps, if I say "Humans are rational" I am speaking for all humans, I am unsure if this is a way of trying to "win" this argument, or just an actual mistake.

I have many ideas like that, also in PB2, you can hear the sounds of invisible units, including the battle music, yet you cannot have invisible players in multiplayer, this could be because some people do not play with sound? kind of weird.

If the prediction is right it is a more effective conversation, it is a risk I like to take, also generally speaking, you kept saying that, so it made me think that was likely.

It was a figure of language, we have the equivalent of a Cahir, a good map maker, but not to the same level of Cahir, it was a way of speaking, nothing was ever close to Cahir, and these days you can pretty much do what others do, but back then, I think nobody really could, but getting knowledge about map making was WAAAAY harder.

Ok so, most of my arguing on this forum was agaisnt Jason Eden, a narcissistic OCPD retard, who literally ignored reason and also ignored me, this made me very angry at him, and I kind of got aggressive when talking to people in PB2, this is kind of a habit I developed, other than that, just a bunch of approved map players that just defend their point because it is benefitial to them, not because they truly believe it, so their argumetns were always pathetic and it made me very annoyed and angry! you do not seem to be like that, to an extent, at times you can kind of be but I think it is just your way, unironically, are you autistic? aspergers or anything, did you ever take a test? I am just curious, because almost always, when this kind of issue pops up in a discussion, the other person is somewhere in the spectrum, but maybe you are the exception and this belief of mine is wrong.
Pushing them to the ridiculous is actually a good thing! this is very common in philosophy and such (and I am used to authors that do that! it contributes to me doing that), it does kind of get close to strawmanning and such, but I always try not to, I just try to make it evident that I think your point is weak and why, also some of your behaviour reminds me of people who do want to bait me, or are just adapting weak arguments over and over again to annoy me, I have argued a lot in the internet, and most people do not see discussions like you do, so I kind of have to beat them in their own game, and I did think you were biased because I would have dropped most of your points way earlier, I actually used to think that stryde-sniper was a bad map and that it should be unapproved, but I changed my mind on that, so that specifically got me a bit mad, and also because the extreme vast majority of people have a bias agaisnt that map because it is the most played and most popular map ever, and some do have a bias for it, because they like the map or play it, classical.
Also, I do not think that respect is relevant to argumentation! I try to see it as a thing of facts and it makes me uncomfortable to have someone I dislike as the one I am discussing, because it will make me more angry at being wrong, so I have to come up with good ideas! it is about being effective, of course there is the chance I am wrong and am unable to make arguments, but I only do that with points I am more secure about, it also makes them mad, it does have some effectiveness problems, such as people thinking that it is ad hominem, when it is only insulting, because ad hominem is when the ARGUMENT ITSELF is about people, not when you make an argument then insult.
Actually, you are probably the best person I've ever had an argument with on this game and forum! (maybe Hikarikaze could be better? I am unsure) I do still disagree with a ton of things you say, but keep on replying, this is fun to me at least.

To keep it short. My only concern is the activity in ranked section. If changing the approval criteria will lead to the raise of activity I will admit it was a good idea. Even though removing stryde-sniper and its clones is a risk I think it is worth it as ranked section is mostly dead anyway so there is not much to lose but there is a chance to gain. Calling people autists is considered an insult to the most people, despite of its direct definition. No, I don't have Asperger's. Misunderstanding happens because sometimes it's hard to understand you. Respect matters if you want people to be nice to you and if you want them to listen to you. Don't let bad people make you aggressive. They don't deserve a right to change you. You mentioned Friedrich Hayek and Wittgenteins. Can you give exact works that are short if possible?
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 4 November 2020, 19:56

xElijah wrote:To keep it short.

GOOD IDEA!

Even though removing stryde-sniper and its clones is a risk I think it is worth it as ranked section is mostly dead anyway so there is not much to lose but there is a chance to gain.

Well, I already made my reply to this, it is a risk that might not be able to be solved if it ends up being a mistake, and it might just kill it for real, we cannot know for sure, I think people would just play similar maps and nothing would change, for reasons I already explained, but this suggestion is pretty much never going to happen, I think nobody in staff agrees with you or would risk it, and of course there is the issue that it is kind of a pizza sauce move to Stryde to remove his map from approval, but you can argue for it being removed with the information I gave to you, but in the past it did not get removed, if you really believe that, you are open to try it out.

Calling people autists is considered an insult to the most people, despite of its direct definition.

Well, this is a very weird insult, autistic people, mostly when they have it to a lower degree, generally considered aspergers, generally test for higher IQs and such, a ton of extremely intelligent people fit the criteria! the biggest example I would say is Isaac Newton, they generally are just a bit out of touch with reality in some aspects, and what is obvious, so some more down to earth people think they are stupid, and sadly it is now used as an insult.

Respect matters if you want people to be nice to you and if you want them to listen to you.

True, but if you take logic in a more rigid way, all of this should not matter, sometimes I try to be more aggressive in discussions because I want people to realize that, who is saying something does not matter, but you are right, people get less open if you are aggressive, but then it also makes it more obvious that they are wrong when you are completely right and they have no point and are just mad as well.

Don't let bad people make you aggressive. They don't deserve a right to change you.

Well, this gets to an issue, this was probably the best discussion I had in this forum! like, you actually know about logic, burden of proof, biases and fallacies, like basically nobody here knows about that, and most that do, I either told them about that or they are my friends, so I am of course more respectful to them, also naturally I am not that nice and generally have to force myself to be a bit nicer, so I actually end up liking it a bit? not really nice, I actualyl want to say that I enjoyed this discussion and thank you for reading it all! few people would and few would bother replying, thanks!

You mentioned Friedrich Hayek and Wittgenteins. Can you give exact works that are short if possible?

Wittgenstein is a bit complicated because everything he wrote is long, but in general, the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus for the more serious part of language, and more formal and philosophical part (kind of what I refered to), and Philosophical Investigations if you want to know more about the more normal and practical use of language, which I did refer to a bit, but my argument was mostly about what he talks about in the Tractatus, but then he does talk about the Tractatus in Philosophical Investigations, but in general it is a concept he already kind of considered true, but I think it is a good read because Wittgenstein's work actually is very modern and changes how you see the rest of philosophy in general, because of how language in general sucks for communication, you could look up some videos or like explanations of the book, mostly when it comes to definitions, actually what I refered to, to an extent was already mentioned by Kant and I think even Leibniz, but I have no idea of where, it just makes me remember I read something by them that mentioned that, and maybe Spinoza as well? but I've read most of this quite a while ago so it might be my memory failing (Spinoza writes in a way that reminds me of Wittgenstein, could be that maybe?).
Hayek is a bit complicated because his theory was written in a bunch of different books, kind of taking a lot that was written from the Austrian School of Economics as his base, to an extent, Fatal Conceit does explain it a bit, but more about economics and centralization and in a way that he tries to refute socialism, it is a pretty small book (200 pages-ish), Law, Legislation and Liberty, mostly volume 1: Rules and Order, talks about that a bit more, Hayek is a bit confusing, but is the book that takes more on the topic I was talking about, in general the difference betwen Cosmos and Taxis (as he puts it in part 2 of Volume 1), Cosmos being the auto-developed orders, not centralized order, coming from the greek kosmos, and Taxis which is the centralized order, made by a central organization or figure, from the greek term taxis, in general Hayek defends cosmos more, and he even got his nobel prize because of his writings on how money should be cosmos and not taxis (Individualism and Economic Order, but mostly The Pure Theory of Capital and of course, The Denationalisation of Money, which has had practical applications to the modern day! such as bitcoin and others, if you like Hayek I can recommend other authors that take his ideas and apply them to other fields and areas and in general I can show how I see his explanations applying to more mundane stuff, including PB2 (ever realized that, pretty much the only alive clan for the last few years that is still a PB2 clan is DARK CLAN, which is pretty much not centralized at all? and even paulstin agrees with that? pretty interesting right?).
Also, if I said any term or translation of book title wrong, it is because I am from Brazil and my natural language is portuguese, and I've read most of these books in portuguese, I did google the translation for the titles and such, but maybe even that is wrong.

EDIT: I want to make the list of books a bit more formal, with some book PDF links and the amount of pages.
WITTGENSTEIN:
- Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, around 300 pages
- Philosophical Investigations, around 250 pages
I could not find PDFs from good sources that were not in portuguese for Wittgenstein's books, I recommend getting a version of the Tractatus that includes the introduction by Bertrand Russell, since I've found some without it and that is very strange.

HAYEK:
- Law, Legislation and Liberty, you mostly need volume 1 which has around 200 pages, however the two other volumes (respectively, around 200 and 250 pages) really add to it, I could not find a PDF that is not in portuguese for free, this is the one you should read the most, the others do mention his system of order but mostly in application and also talk about other topics, this one also talks about others but mostly early on is mostly about order.
- Fatal Conceit, around 200 pages, also could not find a PDF.
- The Pure Theory of Capital, 400-500 pages, depends on edition, I found the free PDF from the Mises (also an interesting author and friend of Hayek) Institute, https://cdn.mises.org/Pure%20Theory%20o ... ital_4.pdf
- The Denationalisation of Money, 140-200 pages, the PDF I found from the Mises Institute seems a bit small, I did not read it but it has a big page difference, seems to be a more clear version of his argument, which might not mention the order aspects as much, but it is still a PDF, https://cdn.mises.org/Denationalisation ... ined_5.pdf
-Individualism and Economic Order, 250-300 pages, https://cdn.mises.org/Individualism%20a ... rder_4.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby xElijah » 4 November 2020, 21:03

phsc wrote:
Spoiler: Show More
GOOD IDEA!

Well, I already made my reply to this, it is a risk that might not be able to be solved if it ends up being a mistake, and it might just kill it for real, we cannot know for sure, I think people would just play similar maps and nothing would change, for reasons I already explained, but this suggestion is pretty much never going to happen, I think nobody in staff agrees with you or would risk it, and of course there is the issue that it is kind of a pizza sauce move to Stryde to remove his map from approval, but you can argue for it being removed with the information I gave to you, but in the past it did not get removed, if you really believe that, you are open to try it out.

Well, this is a very weird insult, autistic people, mostly when they have it to a lower degree, generally considered aspergers, generally test for higher IQs and such, a ton of extremely intelligent people fit the criteria! the biggest example I would say is Isaac Newton, they generally are just a bit out of touch with reality in some aspects, and what is obvious, so some more down to earth people think they are stupid, and sadly it is now used as an insult.

True, but if you take logic in a more rigid way, all of this should not matter, sometimes I try to be more aggressive in discussions because I want people to realize that, who is saying something does not matter, but you are right, people get less open if you are aggressive, but then it also makes it more obvious that they are wrong when you are completely right and they have no point and are just mad as well.

Well, this gets to an issue, this was probably the best discussion I had in this forum! like, you actually know about logic, burden of proof, biases and fallacies, like basically nobody here knows about that, and most that do, I either told them about that or they are my friends, so I am of course more respectful to them, also naturally I am not that nice and generally have to force myself to be a bit nicer, so I actually end up liking it a bit? not really nice, I actualyl want to say that I enjoyed this discussion and thank you for reading it all! few people would and few would bother replying, thanks!

Wittgenstein is a bit complicated because everything he wrote is long, but in general, the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus for the more serious part of language, and more formal and philosophical part (kind of what I refered to), and Philosophical Investigations if you want to know more about the more normal and practical use of language, which I did refer to a bit, but my argument was mostly about what he talks about in the Tractatus, but then he does talk about the Tractatus in Philosophical Investigations, but in general it is a concept he already kind of considered true, but I think it is a good read because Wittgenstein's work actually is very modern and changes how you see the rest of philosophy in general, because of how language in general sucks for communication, you could look up some videos or like explanations of the book, mostly when it comes to definitions, actually what I refered to, to an extent was already mentioned by Kant and I think even Leibniz, but I have no idea of where, it just makes me remember I read something by them that mentioned that, and maybe Spinoza as well? but I've read most of this quite a while ago so it might be my memory failing (Spinoza writes in a way that reminds me of Wittgenstein, could be that maybe?).
Hayek is a bit complicated because his theory was written in a bunch of different books, kind of taking a lot that was written from the Austrian School of Economics as his base, to an extent, Fatal Conceit does explain it a bit, but more about economics and centralization and in a way that he tries to refute socialism, it is a pretty small book (200 pages-ish), Law, Legislation and Liberty, mostly volume 1: Rules and Order, talks about that a bit more, Hayek is a bit confusing, but is the book that takes more on the topic I was talking about, in general the difference betwen Cosmos and Taxis (as he puts it in part 2 of Volume 1), Cosmos being the auto-developed orders, not centralized order, coming from the greek kosmos, and Taxis which is the centralized order, made by a central organization or figure, from the greek term taxis, in general Hayek defends cosmos more, and he even got his nobel prize because of his writings on how money should be cosmos and not taxis (Individualism and Economic Order, but mostly The Pure Theory of Capital and of course, The Denationalisation of Money, which has had practical applications to the modern day! such as bitcoin and others, if you like Hayek I can recommend other authors that take his ideas and apply them to other fields and areas and in general I can show how I see his explanations applying to more mundane stuff, including PB2 (ever realized that, pretty much the only alive clan for the last few years that is still a PB2 clan is DARK CLAN, which is pretty much not centralized at all? and even paulstin agrees with that? pretty interesting right?).
Also, if I said any term or translation of book title wrong, it is because I am from Brazil and my natural language is portuguese, and I've read most of these books in portuguese, I did google the translation for the titles and such, but maybe even that is wrong.

EDIT: I want to make the list of books a bit more formal, with some book PDF links and the amount of pages.
WITTGENSTEIN:
- Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, around 300 pages
- Philosophical Investigations, around 250 pages
I could not find PDFs from good sources that were not in portuguese for Wittgenstein's books, I recommend getting a version of the Tractatus that includes the introduction by Bertrand Russell, since I've found some without it and that is very strange.

HAYEK:
- Law, Legislation and Liberty, you mostly need volume 1 which has around 200 pages, however the two other volumes (respectively, around 200 and 250 pages) really add to it, I could not find a PDF that is not in portuguese for free, this is the one you should read the most, the others do mention his system of order but mostly in application and also talk about other topics, this one also talks about others but mostly early on is mostly about order.
- Fatal Conceit, around 200 pages, also could not find a PDF.
- The Pure Theory of Capital, 400-500 pages, depends on edition, I found the free PDF from the Mises (also an interesting author and friend of Hayek) Institute
- The Denationalisation of Money, 140-200 pages, the PDF I found from the Mises Institute seems a bit small, I did not read it but it has a big page difference, seems to be a more clear version of his argument, which might not mention the order aspects as much, but it is still a PDF
-Individualism and Economic Order, 250-300 pages

Ok, thanks for the talk and thanks for the books. I will check them out when I get a chance to.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby nightmar » 6 November 2020, 12:44

I suggest map devs to stick on the Single Player side. Multiplayer seems like a lost cause to me.
How many bugs does this game have anyway? jeez
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Nakimato » 7 November 2020, 18:54

most approved maps look like a copy of sniperwars lol

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Girl_Power » 7 November 2020, 22:57

Nakimato wrote:most approved maps look like a copy of sniperwars lol


Eventually, we will run out of new designs for maps, just like how we will run out of new music.
— Officially Retired —

Moved onto other gaming platforms — Thanks for everything, guys.

Link to my profile: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?a=&s=7&ac=Girl_Power


Gone for good...
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