[Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Hikarikaze » 3 July 2018, 22:09

lostmydollar wrote:Dude why the hell did you disapprove the original map? Oh my god

Not only that, the original map ID leads to the reworked version on the completely unethical "map" account. Free LDR for an account completely skewing the BCLD list by unnecessarily taking up a spot and the original mapmaker loses a map technically

Now's a good time to see how taking the original realwar out affects the game in the short and long term imo. I imagine the new version isn't doing so great just because it's not the same anymore but the staff will find a way to spin 17 matches started as a "good thing"
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Felinwe » 4 July 2018, 04:57

Eek, here comes a blogpost. Just my 2c looking at some of the shitstorm here ~

Star Fox McCloud wrote:
phsc wrote:
Star Fox McCloud wrote:If logic is used, which other map besides realwar gain 14+ players in a full match each day? Since no realwar, will we ever see a 16 player match again? Probably next month, for 28 seconds and have the match die out quickly.


now other than a 16 player match of realwar we will have two stryde sniper matches one full and another one almost full with maybe some people playing some random map like some rails rays and maybe even arena
i prefer the later than a lot of peopl in x death-realwar because that map is indeed spam war, now the remake is actually great, and i had fun playing it, unlike the original, ofc it wont have as many stupid guests spamming, but its actually a playable map that doesnt suck, and i prefer having two stryde snipers and a decent arena map other than a trash spammy shit


Sniper maps are dominating the servers, along with the railwars addicts. much less players than before. usually around 40 players in unranked, now it cant touch 18, which are mostly 1 shot maps


No realwar? It's still there, just has been improved. I doubt that's enough to put off the people who play realwar - who let's face it, are usually 9-12 year olds on potato PCs who just want to mow shit down. (Hang on, isn't that not the target audience for flash games to begin with...?)

I agree with phsc, if more people get bored of realwar and move to other maps, that's better than them otherwise sitting in a spam-war. But people play the maps they like, is that a crime? Must they play the maps only you approve of rather than stryde-sniper? Maybe they like stryde-sniper because it's consistent, simple, and easy-ish, and that's not to mention railwars. They've been a PB2 thing since 2011.

Hikarikaze wrote:
lostmydollar wrote:Dude why the hell did you disapprove the original map? Oh my god

Not only that,


Hang on a second, weren't you the one advocating for Realwar to be removed and disapproved? Why are you now hating on disapproval of it? Don't like the new version, fair enough. It's concept is kinda trashy in my opinion, but it's overall a perfectly fair map and deserves approval more than the old one. Even the map's new description says its a work in progress and they'll keep updating it. (Maybe that means it's trash if it needs so much work? Maybe just means the staff here care enough to try to make everyone happy, although I think that's kinda futile)...

Still, stick to your guns and don't flip flop between wanting it removed, wanting it fixed, wanting it to stay approved. You asked for changes in one of your previous posts on this topic, they seemed to have added the kinds of things you brought up, the map now doesn't have that big spamfest in the middle anymore, the towers aren't campy anymore, there's plenty of cover and almost a second route through the water. Is that not what you asked for?

Hikarikaze wrote:...the original map ID leads to the reworked version on the completely unethical "map" account. Free LDR for an account completely skewing the BCLD list by unnecessarily taking up a spot and the original mapmaker loses a map technically


Let's be real, you're really getting worked up that the staff use a special account for that purpose rather than boosting their own LDRs off fixed updated and improved versions of ancient maps? And come on, skewing the entire level devs list? It bumped whoever is at #200 down off the list, which at 12.75 LDR isn't exactly the biggest achievement in the world. Sure it'd be better off if the account had a fixed LDR of 0, or 5, or 10, or whatever number makes you happy, but it's not this "ethical problem". Admins, maybe look into this <---

Hikarikaze wrote:Now's a good time to see how taking the original realwar out affects the game in the short and long term imo. I imagine the new version isn't doing so great just because it's not the same anymore but the staff will find a way to spin 17 matches started as a "good thing"


I know you're just stirring shit up, but 17 matches started isn't bad for like 3 days given the dire state of MP, though you couldn't hope to draw a conclusion this early. My expectation is longtime realwar fans will move off as the map isn't a shitfest of spam anymore, but 90% of unranked realwar players will just continue to play as soon as they see a match or ID named "realwar", no matter the updates to it.

TBH I feel like I've missed a lot of stuff even reading through this topic. Lostmydollar, Hikarikaze, Phsc, Starfox, you seem very opinionated on this. What would you have done?

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 4 July 2018, 05:48

Yes lol move on to other maps. You mean sniper and RAILWARS maps? Yeah sure lets go back to 2012-2015 when they game was dying cause snipers and rails was raping the servers all the time. One shot maps here we come! Can't wait for more pp hogging and less players playing. Along with laggers quiting.

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby DoomWrath » 4 July 2018, 05:57

It's too late here for me to formulate my opinion into this mess right now, but I'd like say that Felinwe is right in saying that one account with an artificially high LDR is better than giving it to staff members for their personal LDR gains. Especially since all the maps on that account are currently my reworks. It'd be far from fair for me to have that much LDR boost especially when I have no current approved maps anyway.

I have set a restricted map up on the "map" account, which will automatically draw the LDR down to 0 over time, in theory. Not sure if it will counteract multiple approved maps. The map account is already special in certain ways, so it might be possible to have it exempted from ranking lists too.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Hikarikaze » 4 July 2018, 06:19

Felinwe wrote:[...]

New account with a very recent reg date. Nice to see that

Felinwe wrote:Hang on a second, weren't you the one advocating for Realwar to be removed and disapproved?

I never jump straight to advocating for removing a map as a first option when making changes is within the realm of possibility. You yourself say this too:
Felinwe wrote:You asked for changes in one of your previous posts on this topic


So as much as I would love to "hang on a second," what you read and what I said were different. I never directly or outright advocated for removing the map as well as disapproving the map without providing alternative solutions.

Felinwe wrote:Even the map's new description says its a work in progress and they'll keep updating it.

What's your point? A work in progress can still be criticized or disliked, although it would be premature to do so.

On another note, it'd be nice if the description no longer said "the original realwar" because this new rework isn't the original anymore.

Felinwe wrote:Still, stick to your guns and don't flip flop between wanting it removed, wanting it fixed, wanting it to stay approved.

It looks like you're not even clear on what it is you're responding to. You're flip flopping between "aren't you advocating for disapproval" and "you're asking for changes." My post was an address to every side of the debate I could address to, not a post pandering to one side of the issue. Neutrality is an actual position that exists, believe it or not.

Felinwe wrote: they seemed to have added the kinds of things you brought up, the map now doesn't have that big spamfest in the middle anymore, the towers aren't campy anymore, there's plenty of cover and almost a second route through the water. Is that not what you asked for?

Addressing the problem is one thing. Being content with how they addressed it is another. Anyone can still very well spam on top of the floating structure in the water because that area is completely open and there are still angles from the roofs of each tower that can still allow for spamming down to the ground despite the lasers preventing people from standing closer to the edges to do the same exact thing.

I still see fundamental issues existing so no, it really isn't what I asked for. The staff aren't making solid cases or responses by citing play tests as that's observational/anecdotal evidence which are highly subjective and prone to bias.

Felinwe wrote:Let's be real, you're really getting worked up that the staff use a special account for that purpose rather than boosting their own LDRs off fixed updated and improved versions of ancient maps?

Let's be real, this was an issue brought up a long time ago: viewtopic.php?f=117&t=14959&p=138259#p138267

Why should a staff-shared account get full ~+7 LDR per approved map just for changing some elements on things they didn't even make themselves? Better yet, if the purpose is to replace maps with improved versions, then there should be no LDR benefit to the staff-shared account as LDR would be pointless to gain. The realwar map is in x death's name yet the credit and LDR technically goes to the account as if the account made the map entirely.

A better solution would be to simply disable LDR gains or hide it overall. No one needs to gain it here. It's silly that this needs to be argued with "it's better than letting staff get LDR" as if it's the best solution there is.

Felinwe wrote:It bumped whoever is at #200 down off the list, which at 12.75 LDR isn't exactly the biggest achievement in the world.

The account is meant as a place to keep reworked maps in one location and is not treated as an entity. It shouldn't take up a spot on a leaderboard as if it were an entity or person. That's common sense. It's not about being #200 or being a great achievement.

Felinwe wrote:Sure it'd be better off if the account had a fixed LDR of 0, or 5, or 10, or whatever number makes you happy, but it's not this "ethical problem".

It's certainly an ethical problem to me. Perhaps not to you. Your opinion doesn't refute mine. I consider an approved map repository account (that's mostly run and spear-headed primarily by one person if map descriptions are to be believed) overtaking people on a list it doesn't belong in simply for carrying out its purpose to be a concern. It's similar to having alt accounts on the same list.

Felinwe wrote:I know you're just stirring shit up, but 17 matches started isn't bad for like 3 days given the dire state of MP

Good accusation. You've essentially done what I said the staff would do. Wonderful, given you've given the typical "defensive staff member" tone I'm used to seeing. Looks like I've successfully begun to "stir shit up" by ringing up posts of this kind and thus my objective is done.

Felinwe wrote:but 90% of unranked realwar players will just continue to play as soon as they see a match or ID named "realwar", no matter the updates to it.

That's because the map freely uses "x death-realwar" as the map ID still. Anyone not aware of any changes would assume they're playing on the original map as soon as they see the ID.

DoomWrath wrote:Especially since all the maps on that account are currently my reworks. It'd be far from fair for me to have that much LDR boost especially when I have no current approved maps anyway.

It's not that different from having an alt gaining LDR boosts if you're the one spear-heading the operation of an account shared with multiple people who aren't even visible in how things are running. The account is really just mostly you but with a supposedly collaborative "purpose" as an excuse and red herring to justify the artificial and unneeded LDR boost.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby DoomWrath » 4 July 2018, 07:22

Felinwe wrote:Let's be real, you're really getting worked up that the staff use a special account for that purpose rather than boosting their own LDRs off fixed updated and improved versions of ancient maps? And come on, skewing the entire level devs list? It bumped whoever is at #200 down off the list, which at 12.75 LDR isn't exactly the biggest achievement in the world. Sure it'd be better off if the account had a fixed LDR of 0, or 5, or 10, or whatever number makes you happy, but it's not this "ethical problem". Admins, maybe look into this <---


Fairer overall to not have it taking the slot, ignore-able or otherwise. I don't think it's a particularly important problem in the grand scheme of things, but it would be nice to have addressed.

Hikarikaze wrote:
DoomWrath wrote:Especially since all the maps on that account are currently my reworks. It'd be far from fair for me to have that much LDR boost especially when I have no current approved maps anyway.

It's not that different from having an alt gaining LDR boosts if you're the one spear-heading the operation of an account shared with multiple people who aren't even visible in how things are running. The account is really just mostly you but with a supposedly collaborative "purpose" as an excuse and red herring to justify the artificial and unneeded LDR boost.


Yes, the intention was collaborative, that's why Eric created the account. Whether or not I'm the main user of it isn't a point I consider important in the slightest. As for the LDR, I have no ability to remove it besides potentially adding disapproved maps to work in counterbalance to the approved maps. I've asked Eric about removing it from the list/removing its LDR, so stay tuned.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby DoomWrath » 4 July 2018, 08:13

Felinwe wrote:Let's be real, you're really getting worked up that the staff use a special account for that purpose rather than boosting their own LDRs off fixed updated and improved versions of ancient maps? And come on, skewing the entire level devs list? It bumped whoever is at #200 down off the list, which at 12.75 LDR isn't exactly the biggest achievement in the world. Sure it'd be better off if the account had a fixed LDR of 0, or 5, or 10, or whatever number makes you happy, but it's not this "ethical problem". Admins, maybe look into this <---


Hik is correct in that it does skew the list, even if it's just by a small margin or one spot. Fairer overall to not have it taking the slot. I don't think it's a particularly important problem in the grand scheme of things, but it's not insignificant and would certainly be nice to have addressed.

Hikarikaze wrote:
DoomWrath wrote:Especially since all the maps on that account are currently my reworks. It'd be far from fair for me to have that much LDR boost especially when I have no current approved maps anyway.

It's not that different from having an alt gaining LDR boosts if you're the one spear-heading the operation of an account shared with multiple people who aren't even visible in how things are running. The account is really just mostly you but with a supposedly collaborative "purpose" as an excuse and red herring to justify the artificial and unneeded LDR boost.


There is no red herring or false claim here. The 'map' account is collaborative, that's why Eric created the 'map' account. It's true I am the main user, but access is open for any other member of staff if they see fit. Maybe it comes down to the fact I've been here since 2011 and have a bigger connection to the classic maps of the day so put effort into remaking them even if approved MP is quiet these days? As for the LDR, I have no ability to remove it besides potentially adding disapproved maps to work in counterbalance to the approved maps. One restricted map has taken 4LDR off the 'map' account, while each approved map is giving 3-5 LDR. In the end that doesn't really matter too much - I've asked Eric about removing it from the best map creators list or removing its LDR, so stay tuned on that matter.

Hikarikaze wrote:
Felinwe wrote:Even the map's new description says its a work in progress and they'll keep updating it.

What's your point? A work in progress can still be criticized or disliked, although it would be premature to do so.

On another note, it'd be nice if the description no longer said "the original realwar" because this new rework isn't the original anymore.


Uses the original concept, but yes, it's a somewhat different map in its layout. Changed to "Realwar: based on the original map by X Death." as I think that fits the map better.

Hikarikaze wrote:
Felinwe wrote: they seemed to have added the kinds of things you brought up, the map now doesn't have that big spamfest in the middle anymore, the towers aren't campy anymore, there's plenty of cover and almost a second route through the water. Is that not what you asked for?

Addressing the problem is one thing. Being content with how they addressed it is another. Anyone can still very well spam on top of the floating structure in the water because that area is completely open and there are still angles from the roofs of each tower that can still allow for spamming down to the ground despite the lasers preventing people from standing closer to the edges to do the same exact thing.

I still see fundamental issues existing so no, it really isn't what I asked for. The staff aren't making solid cases or responses by citing play tests as that's observational/anecdotal evidence which are highly subjective and prone to bias.


Most of what Felinwe said seems to be fairly true from spectating matches, playtests, and opinions of players asked during matches. In the end, playtesting is anecdotal, but it is also a big part of how maps get approved in the first place. Once they tick the technical boxes, which the current version of realwar does, then the rest comes down to how well the map plays, how popular the map is (if only purely as an indication of whether a map also seems good to a larger number of playtesters than just Eric - or the approval team these days).

The angles you can put fire into the middle area from are greatly reduced, the middle area now has more variety of cover, places you can go, the floating bunker provides a good angle of return fire on the towers. Spam can be done, but is mostly ineffective as it's just blocked by walls.

Please view this image: https://i.imgur.com/i1XFLYq.png

Figure 1: Players in tower windows can't fire at any targets in the water.
Figure 2: Players on top of the tower can't hit close in targets in the water, and only have a small area where rounds might enter a small patch of water near the bunker. It's possible to change his angle of attack by jumping, but this damages accuracy significantly. To cross this player's beat zone, simply wait for a gap in the beat zone and swim past.
Figure 3: Players in the bunker can remove players in the lower window, who are the ones responsible for covering the exit from the water close to the towers.
Figure 4 shows players on the lower window covering the water, also able to counter players in the bunker. These players are in a vulnerable position and not difficult to counter. They can retreat to the rear window of the tower to increase their 'gun depression' but this limits their visibility and capability of attacking the bunker.

Taking players out of the bunker from the towers is difficult as you can't see the bunker from the towers. It's up to your teammates to position themselves in suitable spots, have one person cover the other.

One thing I am considering is extending the water area into the tower or just beyond it (perhaps with one-way pushers?) to allow players to circumvent the towers more easily: https://i.imgur.com/HYqCgpC.png

If there's one thing you reply to in this topic, I'd like to hear what you believe the fundamental issues that still exist with the map are.

Apologies for jumping around so much in this post, I'm taking points as I read up and down recent posts, doing what I can to act on them or provide explanations and questions.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 4 July 2018, 19:14

yesterday and today are same results, haven't seen a realwar match, and just see sniperwars and railwars being played by tryhards, but more exaggerated. much more empty matches.

Seriously we can forget about arena maps now.

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby ShiftyOne » 4 July 2018, 19:56

In the past year that I've been playing multiplayer again all mostly I see are the sniper and rail gun maps, and I miss the variety of maps and arena maps I saw in 2015-2016. Railwars are fun, but when it is all that people want to play, it gets boring. There are more people playing custom games and doing saw maps, parkour, and school roleplay than pvp.

Added with having to fight people with 500+ping often while in railwars is not fun at all. I remember the days of thinking a ping of a 100 was too much while playing on the old Washington server.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 7 September 2018, 12:34

Interesting.

July was the date the map got changed to a horrendous state. It did not get popular. I warned of sniperwars and railwars taking over the servers for weeks and months, it happens. I warned of a lot less maps being hosted, it happens. I even warned about players migrating to custom maps, it happened.

It's an exquisite coincidence to see that the game took a huge dive down the toilet right after the map got touched. Players leaving, complaining that the game is dead again, tryhards return, new maps get approved, nobody really cares and plays them for 2 minutes.

Since when was the last time a map had a whopping 16 players in a match that seemed like a crazy active and fun map to play for nostalgia, AND holds players for over an hour with 14+ players. Since July since realwar itself got touched.

I gave doomwrath that suggestion but he shot it down quickly. Because it would ruin its title and originality. But what he's done, he made it too complicated, there's futuristic weapons, and it's not consistent. Very Unclear of logic right there. "Real" war with futuristic things set before 1970s lol.

Compare, 2 map makers wanted this map touched, when I gave all reasonings to leave it alone. It gets touched, and the game flops right away. 2 map makers, vs me. They want personal gain for plays and popularity, for me on the other side, that tries to give all reason to keep the game alive with one map to sustain players and give portions to other newer maps. And help get and push badass maps for approval. Basically Democratic vs Republican in another perspective.

It goes closer to conclusion that staff and other unlogical map makers want the game dead as intentional. Eric ignores, and staff ignores. PB2.5 will have 1 shot maps again. So this effects that "pre-released" game as well.

The best solution is giving all 16 players yippe sniper rifles, and having needles on the 2 towers to reduce spamming at it's best. Not map's realwar, X Death's

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 7 September 2018, 13:05

Xenixus wrote:http://prntscr.com/iads7c

You can just camp the tower which he has the advantage and the Player on the water could easily die with no accurate precision.


1. You can click when the light is green which it isn't so burdensome.

2. Jump to the water and kill that player

3. Run to the river and kill him

4. Use a grenado on his ass

5........ it's a cover just like other maps.

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 7 September 2018, 15:23

What is the difference of sustaining the amount of players from leaving vs Not sustaining harsh amount of players from leaving the game?

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Hikarikaze » 7 September 2018, 16:26

Star Fox McCloud wrote:I gave doomwrath that suggestion but he shot it down quickly. Because it would ruin its title and originality. But what he's done, he made it too complicated, there's futuristic weapons, and it's not consistent. Very Unclear of logic right there. "Real" war with futuristic things set before 1970s lol.

This is what happens when you have just a few people (or just one according to the description) in full control over the final version of the map. Even the map description reads off as "my opinion > your opinion" imo. Not everyone will find this satisfactory

Granted I never went on realwar enough to compare it with the current version so I can't speak on whether this version is complicated compared to the original, something feels rather off in this iteration. It feels a bit more constrained and restrictive in terms of possible plays you can do when the original seemed to be more simple and straightforward despite its flawed execution. I would edit the map to explore other alternatives than this but I'd need to be provided a source for the original map instead of remaking the original and potentially not having it be fully accurate

Also, I'd like to know the rationale for having a sniper rifle whose red laser almost blends in with an orange sky. A different color sky would better telegraph enemy snipers to a player since the laser would be more visible and stands out more blatantly. The laser as is is visible now but it could always be more visible to give opposing players a better chance at fighting against snipers. I could even argue that having a more visible laser would require more skill for a sniper to have, and also for those fighting against a sniper, and adds more value to killing someone with a sniper rifle. Getting blindly killed because you couldn't see the laser well enough tends to feel cheap (even if realistic but this game isn't meant to be realistic) as all "random" deaths from someone else do

Resi wrote:I reported it to the staff multiple times, but apparently this is fine. Really fine.

That's a normal response unfortunately. It shouldn't be "more or less fine" but eh, what do I know? The staff's become rather apathetic and lazy now in my perspective
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 7 September 2018, 16:37

Let me take over the approval privilages and you will see how much of a godsend MP approved maps are. there's evidences of combined plays i've gathered.

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