[Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby wreak » 1 May 2018, 23:33

People are not going to leave because eric decided to disapprove one single map when there are thousands upon thousands of maps there is in the game.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby IcYeGodZ » 1 May 2018, 23:41

wreak wrote:People are not going to leave because eric decided to disapprove one single map when there are thousands upon thousands of maps there is in the game.


Even though it's the only map that grabs the most player of 16. And grabs new players the most like it's a simple tutorial map. what other map can get 16 players every day or every week?

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Resi » 2 May 2018, 01:58

IcYeGodZ wrote:
wreak wrote:People are not going to leave because eric decided to disapprove one single map when there are thousands upon thousands of maps there is in the game.


Even though it's the only map that grabs the most player of 16. And grabs new players the most like it's a simple tutorial map. what other map can get 16 players every day or every week?


Yeah, it does that because of it's horrible spray-and-pray flaw, those 16 players could scatter around other matches or find a replacement, and this map is nowhere near a tutorial map, it doesn't teach you how to actually play the game, it teaches you how to shoot at one side of the map and hope you kill enemies... that's it.
phsc wrote:WHY ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT REALISM IN A FUTURISTIC 2D FLASH SCROLL SHOOTER THAT HAS ALIENS AND UNREALISTIC UNHOLDABLE GUNS AND REGENERATION AND MANY OTHER THINGS, LOSTMYDOLLAR/JASON EDEN PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC GAME AND STOP TRYING TO TURN IT INTO ONE BECAUSE IT WONT
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby DoomWrath » 4 June 2018, 17:32

It's a very popular map, with 2300+ matches started since last year, the opinions of those players trump the opinions of 10 people on the forums. So I ask, objectively, what is wrong with this map? Is one side at an advantage? Is there a very glitchy part of the map?

So far I can see the only real problems being:
- Spawning into crossfire.
- Inability to find weapons since weapons are stuck in crossfire.

And these problems aren't unique to this approved map.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Incompetence » 4 June 2018, 20:57

DoomWrath wrote:[...]

the map's popular mainly because of the problems you've listed. the problems may not be unique to this map but this map does a good job hosting and reinforcing these problems. it's a meta spray and pray map. cutting down these issues might have some sort of negative effect on the amount of people playing this map but nothing extreme like everyone suddenly dropping this game. the map can still be popular and fun without the glaring problems after all

also 2300+ matches don't "trump" anyone's opinion here, that's argumentum ad populum 100%. for all you know, it could be less than 10 ppl starting 2300+ matches. numbers aren't everything and metrics don't show the whole picture. maybe ask those people what's objectively good/right about the map as well?
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby lostmydollar » 4 June 2018, 21:08

Doom dont listen to anyone who is trying to make popular maps lose their approval flags. Eric trusted you the tool. Dont kill his game
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Incompetence » 4 June 2018, 21:16

lostmydollar wrote:Doom dont listen to anyone who is trying to make popular maps lose their approval flags. Eric trusted you the tool. Dont kill his game

because popularity alone is such a solid argument/s
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby lostmydollar » 4 June 2018, 21:31

Incompetence wrote:because popularity alone is such a solid argument

people like you cant see past the end of the nose
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Resi » 4 June 2018, 21:47

lostmydollar wrote:
Incompetence wrote:because popularity alone is such a solid argument

people like you cant see past the end of the nose


Thank you lostmydollar for again contributing to the improvement of the game while respecting everyone and being open-minded to ideas.
phsc wrote:WHY ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT REALISM IN A FUTURISTIC 2D FLASH SCROLL SHOOTER THAT HAS ALIENS AND UNREALISTIC UNHOLDABLE GUNS AND REGENERATION AND MANY OTHER THINGS, LOSTMYDOLLAR/JASON EDEN PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC GAME AND STOP TRYING TO TURN IT INTO ONE BECAUSE IT WONT
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby thetoppestkek » 4 June 2018, 21:47

Since I was bribed to write this:

For years I hated this map. Bullets flying everywhere - people campfesting spawns or the buildings - and too many people cursing in the game chat to the point where it would kill any overly religious Christian. That's besides the point, however. My primarily issue was with how it was approved.

Only by it's Ълядь popularity. Nothing else. I'm pretty sure literally the only reason it was approved was because of gopniks spamming matches titled "APPROVE X DEATH REALWAR PLS". Every single one of its issue was either completely ignored or overlooked until now, where as a saving grace the OICW was included. That still doesn't magically fix all of its structural and gameplay flaws.

Countless times I've seen people teleporting right into crossfires, firing blindly into the other side and other misguided players charging in only to be pummeled with a hailstorm of bullets. Not even the bloody grenades - the solution to all camping - are enough to send campers flying. Everytime I flush one out - another one just comes by and takes his place. It's simply just ridiculous.

But now to reply to some people supporting this map:

IcYeGodZ wrote:
wreak wrote:People are not going to leave because eric decided to disapprove one single map when there are thousands upon thousands of maps there is in the game.


Even though it's the only map that grabs the most player of 16. And grabs new players the most like it's a simple tutorial map. what other map can get 16 players every day or every week?


Supporting the theory that a game is going to completely fall apart because one map is going to be removed is pure, utter nonsense. Have you seen games tweak/edit/delete maps and then have the entire game fall apart? Has a game died because some modifications have been made to a map or if it has been deleted? I'd love to see what you find on this, so ring me up if you find one such case.

lostmydollar wrote:Doom dont listen to anyone who is trying to make popular maps lose their approval flags. Eric trusted you the tool. Dont kill his game


Oh, how powerful of an argument popularity is. Snap into reality. The map's only popular because it's exploitable and easy to farm. It's also definitely plausible to believe a game will completely die just because one map gets unapproved. (See above.)

------------

But - in general, despite all of its flaws, it should not go away. I'd rather like to see some modifications or tweaks made to it rather than it being completely unapproved. Maybe that would fix its flaws instead of half-assing it by adding a 3-round burst gun which is still relatively spammable. The entrenching-based camping-rewarding gameplay is just plain awful. I'd love to see it converted to a map where campers are easily punished - and people can just rush in the field without collapsing to the ground by a spray of 500 bullets.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby lostmydollar » 4 June 2018, 22:17

thetoppestkek wrote:Oh, how powerful of an argument popularity is. Snap into reality. The map's only popular because it's exploitable and easy to farm. It's also definitely plausible to believe a game will completely die just because one map gets unapproved. (See above.)

I can close my eyes on map flaws if community really likes it. You're free to tell everyone that this map is shitty. Hell even i think its shitty. We should let everybody know that this map is shitty. Change their opinion about this map. That'd be great. But snapping community with map bans strategy wont serve you or anyone any good. Its not how it works with community/society moderation

"just because one map gets unapproved" yea you will say the same shit next time someone decides to disapprove a map. Step by step you will approach the end and people who actually liked this game will thank you real good for your words you've said here today
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby ZapruderFilm » 4 June 2018, 22:21

lostmydollar wrote:
thetoppestkek wrote:Oh, how powerful of an argument popularity is. Snap into reality. The map's only popular because it's exploitable and easy to farm. It's also definitely plausible to believe a game will completely die just because one map gets unapproved. (See above.)

I can close my eyes on map flaws if community really likes it. You're free to tell everyone that this map is shitty. Hell even i think its shitty. We should let everybody know that this map is shitty. Change their opinion about this map. That'd be great. But snapping community with map bans strategy wont serve you or anyone any good. Its not how it works with community/society moderation

"just because one map gets unapproved" yea you will say the same shit next time someone decides to disapprove a map. Step by step you will approach the end and people who actually liked this game will thank you real good for your words you've said here today

Finally, someone understands.
PB2's playerbase will no longer be growing -- That much is clear. The remaining players have stayed mostly through dedication/lack of better options, and I'd say many would be on the verge of quitting if an update came they heavily disagreed with.
Betraying the remaining players by taking the maps that they've been playing for years would not only be selfish, but flat out unfair. (Not to mention whittling away the shrinking community)

To all the mapmakers who want popular maps removed in order to force players to play different maps, please take a step back, PB2 is not compiled of purely mapmakers, and not everyone is interested in playing your map or a"better" map.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 4 June 2018, 22:25

Eric said hes getting sick and tired of updating this map. he passively agreed that the map would slow down the death of PB2 via PM. new players sees the easiest map, they love it, and play it. I still see veterans play the map only if you see carefully.

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Incompetence » 4 June 2018, 23:43

lostmydollar wrote:
Incompetence wrote:because popularity alone is such a solid argument

people like you cant see past the end of the nose

sure, just breeze over the fact i said that this map can be still fun and popular without the problems that make it popular in the first place. this is what people call a "compromise." the fact you or other proponents of this map care about this map's popularity more than its functionality shows where your priorities lie for approved maps. numbers are not everything. if you want to play that card then focus on why those numbers are even there in the first place. stop treating this as some popularity contest because it isn't. i bet if realwar was less known, you would be eager to demand changes to this map or have it removed in a second instead

lostmydollar wrote:I can close my eyes on map flaws if community really likes it.

community liking problems whose exploitation work entirely in their benefit is the literal reason we're having this topic. just because a lot of people like this map doesn't mean it's good or flawless. in fact it's contradictory as to why this map is even popular in the first place. again, this ad populum nonsense isn't an argument.

Star Fox McCloud wrote:Eric said hes getting sick and tired of updating this map. he passively agreed that the map would slow down the death of PB2 via PM. new players sees the easiest map, they love it, and play it. I still see veterans play the map only if you see carefully.

players love maps like realwar mainly because it's simply easy and cheap. this is why meta tactics in any game exist. i guarantee you that if there was another map with the same amount of attention given that offered the same exact problems that people would flock towards that map in a heartbeat if realwar's problems get fixed. it's natural for people to take the easiest route for anything

the community's afraid of losing their easy one way ticket to high kill counts and ranks. that's why touching realwar is a risky move in the first place. do you really want to cater to those lazy people just because those happen to be the majority and leave the map as is? if this map is going to remain approved, there should be a higher skill ceiling that's consistent with other approved maps and fixing the inherent flaws is the best way to do that. a compromise is not hard to establish if people cast aside the map's popularity in the discussion for once

lostmydollar wrote:"just because one map gets unapproved" yea you will say the same shit next time someone decides to disapprove a map

yeah and as soon as another highly popular map comes under fire once more, you'll argue this popularity notion again and again because this game relies solely on popular maps to survive and nothing else to you and other supporters of this position, it seems. then nothing will get done because "omg pb2 will die or the population will skydive to the ground if xyz gets changed" and the community remains ever divisive due to a flawed popular argument that has no weight

this "game will die due to one map being unapproved" argument lacks weight unless there's a precedent that shows this exact effect happening. hell, even the opposite could happen theoretically. lack of a map dominating the servers could make the game less static and allow more obscure maps to gain recognition in the servers because extremely dominant maps wouldn't be in the way. more options can naturally surface if granted the chance. of course that won't likely happen in this last stage of the game unless pb2 gets the destiny 1 treatment via pb2.5 sooner
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby mrblake213 » 5 June 2018, 04:18

I think since there has been new updates, old approved maps also needs to change and cope with the current requirements of map approval.

I mean, since there is an account which is shared by the PB2 staff whose main purpose is to re-make old approved maps that are still good. I personally think that the map should be remade to remove the flaws and so that it can be approved in today's current updates.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby thetoppestkek » 5 June 2018, 12:10

lostmydollar wrote:
thetoppestkek wrote:Oh, how powerful of an argument popularity is. Snap into reality. The map's only popular because it's exploitable and easy to farm. It's also definitely plausible to believe a game will completely die just because one map gets unapproved. (See above.)

I can close my eyes on map flaws if community really likes it. You're free to tell everyone that this map is shitty. Hell even i think its shitty. We should let everybody know that this map is shitty. Change their opinion about this map. That'd be great. But snapping community with map bans strategy wont serve you or anyone any good. Its not how it works with community/society moderation

"just because one map gets unapproved" yea you will say the same shit next time someone decides to disapprove a map. Step by step you will approach the end and people who actually liked this game will thank you real good for your words you've said here today


You clearly didn't read my entire post, or at least the very bottom of it. But here it is just in case:

thetoppestkek wrote:But - in general, despite all of its flaws, it should not go away. I'd rather like to see some modifications or tweaks made to it rather than it being completely unapproved. Maybe that would fix its flaws instead of half-assing it by adding a 3-round burst gun which is still relatively spammable. The entrenching-based camping-rewarding gameplay is just plain awful. I'd love to see it converted to a map where campers are easily punished - and people can just rush in the field without collapsing to the ground by a spray of 500 bullets.


I'm completely fine with it being still around if all of its flaws were fixed. I'm not proposing for it to be completely thrown out of the window and unapproved - I'm just saying that it hasn't had the update it needed. Half-assing by just adding the OICW didn't even do anything - the map will have to go through a rework if we want to have a balanced, non-sprayfest, non-campfest map. Again, read the quoted post for my thoughts on how this map could be improved to remain a staple of approved gameplay.

There's also one minor, yet major thing you're forgetting: even if this map is unapproved, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world. It can still be played on custom gamemodes - and if it is as popular as you support - people will just go ahead and play it on custom gamemodes.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby DoomWrath » 5 June 2018, 15:20

I asked specifically for you to be objective. Instead I received no objective feedback on what is wrong with the map. Many people moan and whine demanding "fixes" without mentioning any.

You seem to think there's a limit to approved maps and we MUST free up realwar's slot for another map - this is not true. And you also seem to think that your opinions that spraying, camping, and trench style warfare are inherently bad are fact, just because you dislike that gameplay doesn't mean may others don't like it too. I asked for objective facts and not opinions.

Map seems fair to both sides, does not have major glitches anyone has brought up, and is immensely popular still. I see zero reason to remove it at this time, and very few if any modifications seem necessary to make.
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 5 June 2018, 15:44

Let's just leave it like this. This is just the top easiest map for a new player to play. Or for others to chillax and roleplay. All team advance or defend or stalemate. Tryhards don't ruin anything for anyone else. simplicity is the thing that always get the most likings.

compare apple and android. Apple is simplistic, more go to them. Android is WAY TOO fking complicated, so less for them.

I just wish the HP was 75hp and PSI swords to be taken out in coop since its useless when you are protected on one side and no plaforms. and theres a glitch when you are at the end of the river and kill campers in towers easily.

-------------------------------------------------

P.S Laggers do not complain ever in this map so its the best map for them. Noobs and laggers have perfect gameplay in this map to play since its 15% competitive,

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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby wreak » 5 June 2018, 17:17

DoomWrath wrote:I asked specifically for you to be objective. Instead I received no objective feedback on what is wrong with the map. Many people moan and whine demanding "fixes" without mentioning any.

You seem to think there's a limit to approved maps and we MUST free up realwar's slot for another map - this is not true. And you also seem to think that your opinions that spraying, camping, and trench style warfare are inherently bad are fact, just because you dislike that gameplay doesn't mean may others don't like it too. I asked for objective facts and not opinions.

Map seems fair to both sides, does not have major glitches anyone has brought up, and is immensely popular still. I see zero reason to remove it at this time, and very few if any modifications seem necessary to make.


Probably because dying by crossfire is hugely inevitable in this map especially in DM. In fact, it's impossible really play that well in DM when you have 7 other people around the map with no alternative route. Were not asking to remove it, and for the 5th time someone has said this, we are asking that we should add a alternative route or cut down on the how easy it is to spray kill people in the map. Some suggested to disapprove it but that's not a good answer either...

And the idea that inability to find weapons due to crossfire (which does happen in a fair amount of maps) is only partially true. There is many maps were that case is rarely true since there is multiple complex route with guns scattered across the map.

You're last point saying that a map is popular so we should keep it approved shows how insignificant requirements
really are. So you're saying xfrostbytex-matrixsniper should be approved since its in the "spirit of pb2" and it is popular with no major bugs/fair on both sides?
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Re: [Removal Request] X Death-RealWar

Postby gani » 5 June 2018, 17:26

this is very worst approved map today exist

2000-2018
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