The current state of map making is tragic

Feedback & Ideas about Custom Maps.

Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 31 October 2020, 18:36

xElijah wrote:The real problem is that people (both map makers and map approval team) break the 4th and main requirement of map approval requirements, which states "Make sure your map is original and does not look like anything approved before (the way it is being played and design/atmosphere-wise)." Focus on words "the way it is being played" and "atmosphere-wise". Now look at maps of Avre (sorry, Avre), for example: this, this and this. They all look different design-wise, but the way they are being played is the same. Same wall architecture, same locations, same paths. Other example - Kubakuba (sorry Kubakuba). Maps: this, this and this. Same problem: same wall architecture but with new backgrounds. If you want approved maps to "have identity" and "be a very special part of the game" you need to start following the 4th requirement. If you see a new map of Avre (sorry Avre), don't look at the backgrounds. Look at how it is being played. If it plays the same as Avre's previous map, don't approve it even if it looks great visually. If it plays completely different from all other Avre's maps and other map maker's maps, then approve it. Following this simple advice would fix the issue where all modern approved maps give you the impression of being unmemorable copies of each other. The reason why they give you this impression is that there are too many approved maps that are played the same and that there are too many approved maps overall. Depreciation has come due to oversaturation.

I agree.

Oversaturation can be fixed by cutting the amount of currently approved maps which can be done by removing maps with similar layout. Also, there is still a "stryde-sniper issue" that doesn't let players to experience new maps. Map that isn't played enough times would always give you the impression of being empty and unmemorable. The more you play some map the more full and memorable it would become to you.

This is not a stryde-sniper issue, its a general issue, but the way you handle it is a bit different, the general experience in a map really matters, if a map generally has a ton of players and plays very good your general view of the map is very positive, this happened to me with ditzy-uprise, it is a vicious cycle, but that cannot really be solved.
About removing generic maps, what you said is right.

Critique and enforcement of strict following of map approval requirements in map approval submissions section of the forum is not an issue.

It literally is, I will explain this later because it seems like you got stuff wrong.

It's called progress. Now you need to be a really experienced map maker if you want to get your map approved.

ACTUALLY NO! first is that, experience != quality, the creator generally makes a good product but someone who is bad MIGHT make a good product, is it likely? no, but it is possible, that is very common in other fields, someone with little musical experience might make a good song, someone with little engineering experience might come up with a really nice solution, someone with little programming knowledge might think of a really interesting way of solving an issue, someone with little academical experience might make a very interesting and unique study, AND SOMEONE WITH LITTLE MAP MAKING EXPERIENCE MIGHT MAKE A VERY NICE DIFFERENT INTERESTING MAP, and it is not called progress, but here is the thing, quality can always be solved, the more objective stuff, poor wall overlapping and such, boring generic designs cannot and need to be remade.

And we see how it works. Today's maps are very pretty. In case if you don't agree on some random Stryde's critique on your map approval request you can always say your "no, I don't agree because..." instead of "Yes, yes, I'll fix it immediately, just please don't hurt me".

Yes, you can say no, and then not change your map! ok, you can do that, but it will not get approved because now it is all centralized, back in like 2017, it was not as centralized and yeah, if Doomwrath did not want to approve your map, go to Kiriakos, problem solved, often they would ask fellow staff members and such but the general care for the approval criteria and map quality was lower.

Stryde is not the ultimate king of map approval. There are other people who can approve/disapprove maps, including Eric himself.

Good luck getting Eric to approve a map of yours, currently, it all has to go by the approval team, you cannot like just casually talk to Ditzy or some other staff member for him to approve your map, and this is the issue, because some people are kind of awkward in how they approve maps and the criticism of theirs, such as Creeperhunter55 in my opinion.

If one moderator didn't approve your map for some unjust reason, just go to another one.

I already explained, back in 2017 it was like that, currently, it is not.

If none of them approved your map and you think they are all wrong, write a post about it. Make people talk. When they talk they force PB2 staff to change and adjust their views on certain subject. In fact this is exactly what we are doing here right now.

Yes, write a post about it, and then nobody will care, because the power is centralized! writing and talking about the issue will not solve the issue, because it is about power, the only case where it can change is if Eric himself acts and getting Eric to do that is extremely hard.

The argument that today's approved maps layout requirements are aimed for handicapped children who don't know how to selfboost is true.

It is not even about selfboosting, it gets to such a low level, like deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sword boosting, do they not have their deliciously exquisite pizza sauce mouse buttons working or what?

But as Mingo1 said if you are good enough as a map maker you can find the balance, you can find the solution. If you can't find the balance, if you can't find the solution you're not a good map maker. Simple.

No, literally not, if you want a high skill cap, you cannot get that map approved because it is going to be unfair and some players are going to have an advantage, it is not about skill in mapmaking, it is about changing what you want, and that is not really being good at map making, you can have balanced maps that are good and all within the criteria, the issue is that... you cannot have high skill cap maps approved, which would be the ones that make the most sense for RANKED GAMEPLAY, just like every single other game in existance works.

The fact that there are too few new approved maps that have a memorable creative layout is a sign that the amount of creative people in PB2 is decreasing. It's not a sign of requirements or approval team being too strict. Creative people just leave the game. If you want to see more creative maps we need more creative people playing this game. If you think you know how to make creative maps, show it. Also, welcome back Max teabag. I can't play your map. It gives me an error. Image.

It is also that the game has been going on for a while and a lot has been done, it is a sign of the approval team being too strict as well, why do creative people leave the game? because they do not want to make maps... because it is annoying to get them approved, I know this from my experience talking to map makers who got maps approved and then did not want to get more approved.
Objectively, creativity is limited by... limits, literal limits, that is not inherently bad, the issue is that they go too far, what you said here is wrong.
-creative people of pb2 are leaving (you dont explain why)
-its not staffs fault (you dont explain why)
-we need more creative people (you dont explain how)
-you say the criteria for approval are not wrong (you dont explain why!)
while what makes a ton of sense is
Creative people are being limited and unable to create vastly different maps for ranked because of the criteria and approval team, and also because there is little reason for them to create an innovative approved map instead of a custom one.


Max Teabag wrote:Yeah, comparing 2D shooters with 3D shooters in apples to oranges.
What I was getting at is that we should not reject maps because it doesn't follow a particular principle. For example, it seems like the hidden principle behind "no camp spots" and "no far lines of sight" might be abstracted to an idea such as "no position should be stronger than another, no hierarchy of positions."

You can see how the lack of real structure in the maps made today is based on this principle. (You may now guess why the example map in the OP is a pyramid.

People say the map should be fair, so all positions have to be fair.
No, what we should aim at is that everyone should have a fair chance of gaining dominant positions.
Please don't get wind-up on this particular example. My point is that the approval team and the community, in general, operate on a shallow philosophy, and there needs to be a shift in mindset.

I see critics of maps make up problems based on hypothetical situations based on the architecture of the walls itself.
The architecture of the map is such a complex art form because it depends on so many factors playing together. There are so many possibilities to allow for a fair game without. You simply cannot judge a map like this.

facts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby xElijah » 31 October 2020, 21:04

Hello @Phsc.

phsc wrote:This is not a stryde-sniper issue, its a general issue, but the way you handle it is a bit different, the general experience in a map really matters, if a map generally has a ton of players and plays very good your general view of the map is very positive, this happened to me with ditzy-uprise, it is a vicious cycle, but that cannot really be solved.

I see stryde-sniper as a switch. If you remove it players who play it everyday will think "Ok, stryde-sniper is removed. I guess I have no other choice than try and explore other maps". I think removing this map would help new maps to be noticed and played. Players would gather in a match with new map, play it with a lot of other people who are no longer able to play stryde-sniper and then get the memorable experience and a wish to play it again sometime later. I think removing stryde-sniper would allow the community to move forward and force the stagnation of ranked section to end.

phsc wrote:ACTUALLY NO! first is that, experience != quality, the creator generally makes a good product but someone who is bad MIGHT make a good product, is it likely? no, but it is possible, that is very common in other fields, someone with little musical experience might make a good song, someone with little engineering experience might come up with a really nice solution, someone with little programming knowledge might think of a really interesting way of solving an issue, someone with little academical experience might make a very interesting and unique study, AND SOMEONE WITH LITTLE MAP MAKING EXPERIENCE MIGHT MAKE A VERY NICE DIFFERENT INTERESTING MAP, and it is not called progress, but here is the thing, quality can always be solved, the more objective stuff, poor wall overlapping and such, boring generic designs cannot and need to be remade.

When I said progress I meant that the approval system became much better than it was before. Back in time nobody was actually caring about quality of maps submitted for approval. You just post an approval request, nobody responds to it and then some random Kiriakos pops up from nowhere saying your map is now approved. Or you just message some staff member to make him approve your map. Now things are different. Now map approval is a serious procedure with playtesting and critique. And since the moment of appearance of this system I noticed a big improvement of approved maps overall quality. This is what I call progress.

Also yes, experience =/= quality. No idea why you came to conclusion that I meant it. Maybe I express things badly? In this case, sorry.

phsc wrote:Yes, you can say no, and then not change your map! ok, you can do that, but it will not get approved because now it is all centralized, back in like 2017, it was not as centralized and yeah, if Doomwrath did not want to approve your map, go to Kiriakos, problem solved, often they would ask fellow staff members and such but the general care for the approval criteria and map quality was lower.

I think you exaggerate and dramatize a little. I haven't seen a single unjustly rejected map that was actually good and worthy of approval. Also you can still go to other admin/mod to get your map approved. If he doesn't want to approve your map when it's clearly worth it but was rejected previously, then it only means that he doesn't care about you or your map. If someone cares about you he will always try to help you no matter what. It's all about caring/not caring.

phsc wrote:Good luck getting Eric to approve a map of yours, currently, it all has to go by the approval team, you cannot like just casually talk to Ditzy or some other staff member for him to approve your map, and this is the issue, because some people are kind of awkward in how they approve maps and the criticism of theirs, such as Creeperhunter55 in my opinion.

Like I said above if someone (like Ditzy) really cares about you he will do everything possible to help you solve your issue. Even if it takes to go against the majority of staff team or certain staff member. Or even breaking the procedure.

What's wrong with CreeperHunter55's critique? Please refresh my memory.

phsc wrote:Yes, write a post about it, and then nobody will care, because the power is centralized! writing and talking about the issue will not solve the issue, because it is about power, the only case where it can change is if Eric himself acts and getting Eric to do that is extremely hard.

Changes take time and effort. Even though the result does not seem obvious I can already see certain involved people replying to the topic showing that they care and ready for changes:
Stryde wrote:Throughout this thread, I am seeing a large number of players voice their opinions on the matter at and, and I really do like that. If people want to further share sentiments about the matter, I really would like to talk with them.
I'm happy other players share similar sentiments towards the map approval system and towards the competitive environment. These two properties are innately tied together, and until now, no one has realized that.
I hope to propose solutions to the approval team, to the community, and to the developer to improve the quality of PB2 and the development of PB3.



phsc wrote:It is not even about selfboosting, it gets to such a low level, like deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sword boosting, do they not have their deliciously exquisite pizza sauce mouse buttons working or what?

You expect all 10 years old to know how to sword boost, walljump, etc. When in fact many of them don't know how. It is very possible that many if not most of them don't even speak english to learn certain moves. When I first joined PB2 in 2011 I wasn't able to learn how to do walljump for around a year. Funny, right? Now imagine actual 10 years old newbie who joined just today. Can he know everything that you know? That's a cognitive bias called "curse of knowledge". Be careful with it.

phsc wrote:No, literally not, if you want a high skill cap, you cannot get that map approved because it is going to be unfair and some players are going to have an advantage, it is not about skill in mapmaking, it is about changing what you want, and that is not really being good at map making, you can have balanced maps that are good and all within the criteria, the issue is that... you cannot have high skill cap maps approved, which would be the ones that make the most sense for RANKED GAMEPLAY, just like every single other game in existance works.

Define "high skill cap map" please. A map with a lot of camp spots and high ground advantages?

phsc wrote:It is also that the game has been going on for a while and a lot has been done, it is a sign of the approval team being too strict as well, why do creative people leave the game? because they do not want to make maps... because it is annoying to get them approved, I know this from my experience talking to map makers who got maps approved and then did not want to get more approved.

I don't think that the main reason why creative people leave the game is because they can't get an approved map. Most likely those who can't get an approved map aren't really creative. Those who are creative always get their maps approved easily. I haven't seen a single creative map maker who left the game because of that reason. Can you tell the names?

phsc wrote:Objectively, creativity is limited by... limits, literal limits, that is not inherently bad, the issue is that they go too far, what you said here is wrong.

What? Sorry, I lost you from this point.

phsc wrote:-creative people of pb2 are leaving (you dont explain why)

Why should I explain why? You didn't ask my opinion on why do I think they are leaving. Maybe because they moved to other games that allow to create bigger better quality maps without lags that occur in PB2. Maybe they just grew up from games. Many possible reasons.

phsc wrote:-its not staffs fault (you dont explain why)

Russell's Teapot. You say it's their fault, you prove why.

phsc wrote:-we need more creative people (you dont explain how)

You didn't ask me how. But if I were to answer, I would say it's rather impossible due to PB2 slowly coming to its end. I think the best we can do is to ask Eric to hurry with the release of PB3. PB2 is pretty much doomed in the question of creative map making because it doesn't let people create quality maps without bugs and lags. Example would be latest Mrnat444's map that you rated 5*. It's really laggy.

phsc wrote:-you say the criteria for approval are not wrong (you dont explain why!)

Russell's Teapot.

phsc wrote:while what makes a ton of sense is
Creative people are being limited and unable to create vastly different maps for ranked because of the criteria and approval team, and also because there is little reason for them to create an innovative approved map instead of a custom one.

Everyone has his own reasons to create either approved or custom map. Don't speak for all of them.

Map makers are able to create vastly different maps. It all comes to a certain person. We are speaking of creative ones, right? For example I think CreeperHunter55's and LoneWolf56's maps are very innovative and look different from other modern maps.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby lpzimm » 31 October 2020, 21:24

I'm surprised that this is controversial - I called your post virtue signaling cause I thought everyone would agree, but evidently not.

The only thing I would pick out is this: "A shift in paradigm is needed. Think about the story of your map. The map needs to be a real place. What happened here? How was it built? Why was it built the way it was, what function did the rooms, the areas, the buildings serve for the people who used them? What happened to these buildings and why?
Let’s aim at creating a unique setting, a memorable aesthetic that fits the unique layout."

This has value, but I think there are equally valid ways of thinking up maps. My maps, for example, bring to the forefront an aspect of gameplay I notice in the background of other maps. An example of this could be "I noticed someone shooting someone as they fell off a building. What if I made a map emphasizing shooting while falling?" - this leads to my maps being abstract playgrounds where, instead of thinking "how does this structure fit the theme of my map?", I think "how does this structure contribute to the core gameplay mechanic of this map?". In the shooting while falling example, maybe the structure would let you get to the falling point quickly, but also put you in the line of fire of the falling opponents.

I'm not saying it's bad to make thematic maps, just that there are other ways.

Another thing:
"P.S: Please STOP giving hate to the approval team." - Nyove

Absolutely don't stop. Map approval team deserves criticism along with the rest of the map makers, and the amount of effort you put in has no bearing if the method is flawed.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 31 October 2020, 22:40

@XElijah yeah. hey, do you notice that there hasn’t been an approved match filled with 16 players since September? We think one “special” map has been removed silently to kill that, u know what im sayin?? :roll:

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 31 October 2020, 23:22

xElijah wrote:I see stryde-sniper as a switch. If you remove it players who play it everyday will think "Ok, stryde-sniper is removed. I guess I have no other choice than try and explore other maps". I think removing this map would help new maps to be noticed and played. Players would gather in a match with new map, play it with a lot of other people who are no longer able to play stryde-sniper and then get the memorable experience and a wish to play it again sometime later. I think removing stryde-sniper would allow the community to move forward and force the stagnation of ranked section to end.

People would just play stryde-sniper2 or stryde-sniper3 or xfrostbytex-snipezone or x d-sniper or whatever, and if these maps are removed, then... well, RIP snipers? take out one genre to give more to others? and then people stop playing!
The biggest issue with this is that, a lot of people only like snipers or only like stryde-sniper, this would just hurt the game even more, or people would go play sfryde-sniper or other copies, but well... copies are now bannable right? but I think people would just keep making copies with VPNs and new accounts.
This is the same reasoning for banning weapons, you can automatic weapons and people still kill with semi automatic ones, you ban firearms and now people kill with knifes, you ban knifes and now people kill with bats and domestic objects, are you going to ban general objects? people want what they want, in general it might change what they want, but this would be an extreme risk, and also, wouldn't it be a real pizza sauce move to those who like the map and to Stryde?

xElijah wrote:When I said progress I meant that the approval system became much better than it was before. Back in time nobody was actually caring about quality of maps submitted for approval. You just post an approval request, nobody responds to it and then some random Kiriakos pops up from nowhere saying your map is now approved. Or you just message some staff member to make him approve your map. Now things are different. Now map approval is a serious procedure with playtesting and critique. And since the moment of appearance of this system I noticed a big improvement of approved maps overall quality. This is what I call progress.

Well, to an extent you are right, but Kiriakos did playtest maps, as did other staff members, and messaging staff members for map approval was agaisnt the rules as far as I know, but I am unsure if it was that better, there were criteria to be followed, and it did not have the dumb "you have to hold gun and jump to all places" kind of rule, I mean formally it did exist but nobody cared and things worked much better, I do think a lot of bad maps were approved, but I am unsure if it is real progress, some things got better and some worse.

xElijah wrote:Also yes, experience =/= quality. No idea why you came to conclusion that I meant it. Maybe I express things badly? In this case, sorry.

Because of the way you wrote your reply, but it's fine.

xElijah wrote:I think you exaggerate and dramatize a little. I haven't seen a single unjustly rejected map that was actually good and worthy of approval. Also you can still go to other admin/mod to get your map approved. If he doesn't want to approve your map when it's clearly worth it but was rejected previously, then it only means that he doesn't care about you or your map. If someone cares about you he will always try to help you no matter what. It's all about caring/not caring.

Well, I've seen some maps that had to change a lot in ways I do not think they had to change, I gave out some examples earlier here, or maps that got straight up ignored (RIP Balem, he got ignored for I think 2 weeks), I do agree most maps that were not approved did not deserve it, but there are some exceptions, and some changes and criteria which are... questionable, and it is not really caring or not, and you literally cannot go to other mods because they will have to talk to the approval team, so you are limited to the minds of the approval team, while back then you were not, not to mention how many staff members do not have the permission to approve maps and many do not deal with that kind of thing, I know this because I talk to some staff members and they all would check with the approval team, and it is not about caring as I said, I asked Ditzy to approve phsc-urbanwar because I was getting no replies and the only problem was the dumb "too many lamps" thing Creeperhunter55 said, and he also did not really think taht was a problem and really helped me testing the map, but he still had to talk to the approval team, because there will still be the forum post and all of that and it gets kind of... strange.

xElijah wrote:Like I said above if someone (like Ditzy) really cares about you he will do everything possible to help you solve your issue. Even if it takes to go against the majority of staff team or certain staff member. Or even breaking the procedure.

I disagree and have explained why, nobody would care about approving a map more than following staff rules and risking being kicked out, this is absurd and if staff members do this its literal corruption to an extent, your argument is so weak you are literally saying "you can ask staff members to break rules and be corrupt to get your map approved" and this is just out of touch with reality, it really shows how my point is strong, because you are just moving goalposts at this point.

xElijah wrote:What's wrong with CreeperHunter55's critique? Please refresh my memory.

He consistently makes extremely strange points, not explaining them in a good way as well, some examples I remember were him saying my map had too many lamps, which was very strange, the map is my urbanwar version and, in dense urban enviroments there are a lot of lamps, and the lamp decors, not even the lamp object, that could cause lag and all, another case which might be the worst was when he complained about darkstar 1-glhf having a lamp decor with a laser on top, which looks really cool, but he did not like it and wanted that changed? it ended up not being changed, but that is only one of the cases and I think darkstar's reputation and all greatly helped, another good case is his comment on a map I forgot, I think it was by nastypop, he said that "movement felt weird" or something similar, and did not go deep, what the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce is weird? and why is weird wrong? different does not mean wrong or bad.

xElijah wrote:Changes take time and effort. Even though the result does not seem obvious I can already see certain involved people replying to the topic showing that they care and ready for changes:

This post is kind of an exception, because it is THE Max Teabag, the top 1 map maker, the PB2 legend, if it was some generic dude who has like 15 LDR and has been playing the game for two years, no matter how strong his points are, it probably would just be ignored.

xElijah wrote:You expect all 10 years old to know how to sword boost, walljump, etc. When in fact many of them don't know how. It is very possible that many if not most of them don't even speak english to learn certain moves. When I first joined PB2 in 2011 I wasn't able to learn how to do walljump for around a year. Funny, right? Now imagine actual 10 years old newbie who joined just today. Can he know everything that you know? That's a cognitive bias called "curse of knowledge". Be careful with it.

You did not get my point, at all, actually this is a strawman, because you are repyling to an argument I did not make, a 10 year old is not a retard, and if he is unable to use swords to jump, how do you expect him to be able to put his cursor over someone and hit them? it is intuitive, you try to jump and fail, you might try using X or shooting or using swords, because you can feel the difference in weight when you walk, I actually went out and did this experiment, I got my mom to play PB2 and told her to try to grab the high ledge of each side of stryde-sniper, the one near the middle but not the center one, and she was able to by using swords in a few seconds, my mom, who plays no games, at all, also if you are unable to walljump, should walljumping be removed from approved maps? because I am pretty sure some still have it, and this gets to the actual point I'm making, who gives a deliciously exquisite pizza sauce about that? it is ranked, competitive play for PB2, approved maps, they can play and just be beat, just like every game works, in League of Legends when you suck you just go to Bronze or Iron and stay there until you learn, and then you climb, perfectly fine, why should it differ in PB2? it is literal bad game design that limits high level play, it is not a cognitive bias because I literally said that the 10 year old is a retard and wouldn't know everything I know, but I think you are just trying to win this instead of trying to achieve truth, what about not allowing people to use X on ranked matches because a noob might be unable to? why not limit all maps to a single weapon, because noobs might not be able to change weapons? what about removing defibrilators because noobs might not know it causes little damage and can heal, what about removing the ability to move because noobs might not be able to move? it is such a pathetic argument that can be taken ad infinitum and then you see the scale is arbitrary and really, it's just a pathetic point.

xElijah wrote:Define "high skill cap map" please. A map with a lot of camp spots and high ground advantages?

Skill cap is skill capacity, the maximum a player can go, in PB2 it gets to self boosting, wall boosting, water boosting, that kind of stuff, back then you could abuse lag and that did give you an advantage, it is technique, just like every game has skill aspects to them, it gives an advantage for those with practice and knowledge, which should be fair, right? just like every single competitive game that exists, the player that tries to learn more and understand more gets an advantage, PB2 wants to do the opposite, turns out all those games that do that have extremely vivid competitive communities and are also very popular, even for bad players, of course you can take it to multiple levels, League of Legends is easier than DOTA and is also more popular, but the competitive side of DOTA is way more extreme and has the biggest esports prize pool, because of the skill expression possible.

xElijah wrote:I don't think that the main reason why creative people leave the game is because they can't get an approved map. Most likely those who can't get an approved map aren't really creative. Those who are creative always get their maps approved easily. I haven't seen a single creative map maker who left the game because of that reason. Can you tell the names?

The biggest issue is that if you are a creative map maker you can just make custom maps, look at Max Teabag or Mrnat444, they made maps for approval play but end up just working at more interesting custom map mechanics, because ranked is limiting and not fun in general, again I will use Balem as the example, his map got ignored, he then got banned, and probably would not really enjoy making combat maps, mostly after he learns triggers and all, and I think his maps are pretty interesting and play different from most.

xElijah wrote:What? Sorry, I lost you from this point.

Map approval implies limits, rules, and rules are limiting, if you are a creative person who wants freedom, why not create custom maps? and that seems to happen, again, Max Teabag and Mrnat444.

xElijah wrote:Why should I explain why? You didn't ask my opinion on why do I think they are leaving. Maybe because they moved to other games that allow to create bigger better quality maps without lags that occur in PB2. Maybe they just grew up from games. Many possible reasons.

You make a point and do not explain it in the main point, so the main point has no valid epistemological value, because... it's base does not exist, yes many possible reasons, but in general, you can see they go from approved maps to custom maps, and the creative maps always end up being the custom ones.

phsc wrote:-its not staffs fault (you dont explain why)

Russell's Teapot. You say it's their fault, you prove why.
I have explained why! because there are limits and it to an extent is a circlejerk, it is not a burden of proof inversion, also this gets to a more serious debate which is, truth is not a false dichotomy, saying it is their fault is an affirmation, as is saying it is not their fault, let me explain:
It is their fault - you know that it is their fault, somehow, explain that.
It is not their fault - you know it is not their fault, somehow you know that there is a NOT modifier there, explain why.
This gets a little bit more complicated, but I did explain why! also, my comment came after yours! so this makes no sense in general, the general idea is that staff limits creativity, by making rules and limiting what maps can be approved or cannot be, sometimes by very arbitrary and personal views, a good example being Creeperhunter55, it also happens for maps to stay approved, a good example is stryde-sniper, where you cannot grab the ledge I refered earlier without jumping and firing a weapon, does that really differ from sword jumping? it is literally the same mechanic, just with a different weapon, it is actually harder because you have to shoot down.

xElijah wrote:You didn't ask me how. But if I were to answer, I would say it's rather impossible due to PB2 slowly coming to its end. I think the best we can do is to ask Eric to hurry with the release of PB3. PB2 is pretty much doomed in the question of creative map making because it doesn't let people create quality maps without bugs and lags. Example would be latest Mrnat444's map that you rated 5*. It's really laggy.

Again, you made your post before I made mine! same deal as before, here is the thing, limitation can actually be a really interesting challenge to overcome, see, when it is not a limit that is an arbitrary rule but instead trying to be effective, it is a thing people generally seem to like, there are a lot of people that try to make computer programs run in extremely effective ways in some times bad hardware in computer science, the same thing applies, I myself have a ton of PB2 projects, and have made some, a good example would be my dino map, but some others I want/wanted to make are the first Final Fantasy game, the first Submachine game, and a copy of Escape from Tarkov in PB2, and yes, it lags, and it is pretty complicated to even work within the editor, and that is what makes it fun, why not just use some engine and remake FF1? I could use RPG maker or whatever? because it is too easy, also, Mrnat did make his map, even if it lags! and lag is also very relative, depending on who is running what.


xElijah wrote:Russell's Teapot.

You need to learn more about epistemology, you are applying a NOT modifier to a sentence, you are working with a very primitive view of truth, coming from the law of the excluded middle, which Russell even has a problem with, and is to an extent a false dichotomy itself.
In this case, Russell's teapot doesn't apply because it is a thing that we can know, it is not literally impossible, as it does not in the other one, while they still are burden of proof inversions, that does not mean what I'm saying is wrong as well!

xElijah wrote:Everyone has his own reasons to create either approved or custom map. Don't speak for all of them.

You indirectly were speaking for all of them, and well yeah you cannot speak for all of them, it is obvious, this is about the majority! yeah it is all subjective, but there are more common cases, such as the vast majority of people who create a ton of approved maps (such as Avre and kubakuba) doing it for LDR, while most creative people do end up creating more custom maps.

xElijah wrote:Map makers are able to create vastly different maps. It all comes to a certain person. We are speaking of creative ones, right? For example I think CreeperHunter55's and LoneWolf56's maps are very innovative and look different from other modern maps.

I think that being creative when it comes to approved maps is very hard, I think the most creative map I've seen was that Silent Phoenix map you can go to another dimension in eg-rw, the gameplay got very interesting, and I am unsure if that map is approved, and it very likely would not be approved today, see the problem?
EDIT: the map was deleted?
I think that while ch55's maps and lonewolf's maps are interesting, they do not play that interesting, it is more about looks than how they actually play, Sector Eight is imo quite generic, I don't think that ch55-dm or ch55-citadel or ch55-idk or ch55-ch play in very different ways from most modern maps, the most creative one is probably ch55-ch but it reminds me of that Cahir map, area 51? 52? with the teleporters and all, I think that is what PB2 needs, a Cahir of the current generation, he for sure made some creative maps for his time!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Build » 1 November 2020, 03:52

There's one time some people actually appreciate my maps while no one is complaining that its aimed for aesthetic so I just go along with it.

Im not here to disagree with some people(To the point where you have to repeat yourself over and over), I feel bad for being mentioned with kubakuba.
Maybe it's a good time that I move on.

Imo making a new mindset for approval might be difficult for the majority of ppl nowadays, That's why a clear topic can help

I totally agree with blake here, I think that will be my point for this at all

mrblake213 wrote:And personally, I just don't think there can be anything new or innovative that can be done these days when it comes to purely gameplay. I think when you improve more on aesthetics (decorations, backgrounds, wall placements), then the gameplay part will come along.


I'd say CH's maps are a good example, But can people be as unique or creative as him?
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby yi en » 1 November 2020, 04:33

Max teabag wrote:For example, it seems like the hidden principle behind "no camp spots" and "no far lines of sight" might be abstracted to an idea such as "no position should be stronger than another, no hierarchy of positions." [/s]

Not sure what other approvals team opinion about this but I would say those 2 are kinda different things.
I could accept few positions which can be stronger than another as it will develop some strategy to go, but not the "few positions changes the game" styles, which will make all players are just going to rush b on those few position to win the match, and it makes a bad cycle of the healthy gameplay.

I guess, no camp spots which is exploitable and no far lines of sight which can suppress opponent spawn or must-go paths may the best option if we want to change the rules. But it will become totally subjective again.


Max teabag wrote:People say the map should be fair, so all positions have to be fair.
No, what we should aim at is that everyone should have a fair chance of gaining dominant positions.

Cool, but sadly at the moment the playerbase is the biggest there, if most of the players wished for a fair positions gameplay, then it would need to be.
I guess we need to do some questionnaire in order to figure it out the actual fact. Maybe by actual website polls to ask players what kind of approved maps you actual want, then resize the approve maps guidelines, then everything could have solved. (Unless you are trying to change the player base, then it will be a totally different story)

Max teabag wrote:My point is that the approval team and the community, in general, operate on a shallow philosophy, and there needs to be a shift in mindset.

Yes, but now it's the actual problem of the "what player base actual wants" question, which I would say the player base nowadays are just playing safe, familiar maps, but not willing to take a try on new maps, develop new strategies. Look at the approved maps nowadays, I felt glad that we still have a few rooms of actual new maps which they are showing "we are trying to play new maps", but more of them are basically those few classic maps which player played with it.

Just need to remember, consumers develops market, market causes the map developer changes, and consumer effect is a direct impact of how society has become.

Max teabag wrote:I see critics of maps make up problems based on hypothetical situations based on the architecture of the walls itself.
The architecture of the map is such a complex art form because it depends on so many factors playing together. There are so many possibilities to allow for a fair game without. You simply cannot judge a map like this.


facts. Agree on that part.


CakeSpider wrote:Bruh, lets not lie, everyone first impressions of pb2 was custom maps, and still it, no matter how much I was in the approval matches option, custom matches was always popular.

Ah yes, I forgot players require some skills before you are able to earn some kdr in ranked matches. This may be true.

CakeSpider wrote:I think approved maps is second impressions. The most of newgens is kids, they will join to the custom maps because its provided first.

Or because new kids needs to practice their skills in custom maps before they are able to play in approved maps. Truth.

CakeSpider wrote:But anyway, i think all of this conversation becomes to zero due to death pb2 and soon release of pb2.5/3.
So i see a sense into discussions about released pb2.5 than pb2 which is in the balance of death.

By still need to wait for half decade before pb2.5 is out, this discussion is still kinda valid I guess.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby xElijah » 1 November 2020, 15:23

phsc wrote:People would just play stryde-sniper2 or stryde-sniper3 or xfrostbytex-snipezone or x d-sniper or whatever, and if these maps are removed, then... well, RIP snipers? take out one genre to give more to others? and then people stop playing!
The biggest issue with this is that, a lot of people only like snipers or only like stryde-sniper, this would just hurt the game even more, or people would go play sfryde-sniper or other copies, but well... copies are now bannable right? but I think people would just keep making copies with VPNs and new accounts.
This is the same reasoning for banning weapons, you can automatic weapons and people still kill with semi automatic ones, you ban firearms and now people kill with knifes, you ban knifes and now people kill with bats and domestic objects, are you going to ban general objects? people want what they want, in general it might change what they want, but this would be an extreme risk, and also, wouldn't it be a real pizza sauce move to those who like the map and to Stryde?

We cannot know for sure if removing stryde-sniper would lead to such consequences. Playing custom version of stryde-sniper is not an issue as we are talking about ranked section activity right now, not custom section activity. Nobody was talking about removing sniper genre or banning semi automatic weapons from the game. It was only your assumption. Removing stryde-sniper is a risk, but I believe this risk is worth it as it might give give ranked section a new life when people would finally start to discover and play other maps.

phsc wrote:Well, to an extent you are right, but Kiriakos did playtest maps, as did other staff members, and messaging staff members for map approval was agaisnt the rules as far as I know, but I am unsure if it was that better, there were criteria to be followed, and it did not have the dumb "you have to hold gun and jump to all places" kind of rule, I mean formally it did exist but nobody cared and things worked much better, I do think a lot of bad maps were approved, but I am unsure if it is real progress, some things got better and some worse.

I did not say Kiriakos did not playtest the maps. I only said that map approval was a very quick procedure without proper control. If messaging staff members was against the rules, then why did people do that and it worked (not for all of them, but for some)? The fact that Stryde and other concerned people took control over map approval allowed us to jump from maps like this to maps like this. This is "progress". If this isn't progress then I think we have different definitions of this word. What things did become worse in map approval process exactly? That you have to set walls close enough to each so you are able to grab the ledge with a gun? What is wrong with it? Eric wanted ranked section to be newbie-friendly and this rule allows maps to be newbie-friendly. I don't see any problem with it. If you can't make a good map without breaking this rule it only means that you aren't really good as a map maker. Just like I said before - find the solution, find the balance and there will be no issue. An example would be what Mingo1 mentioned - CreeperHunter55's map.

phsc wrote:Well, I've seen some maps that had to change a lot in ways I do not think they had to change, I gave out some examples earlier here, or maps that got straight up ignored (RIP Balem, he got ignored for I think 2 weeks), I do agree most maps that were not approved did not deserve it, but there are some exceptions, and some changes and criteria which are... questionable, and it is not really caring or not, and you literally cannot go to other mods because they will have to talk to the approval team, so you are limited to the minds of the approval team, while back then you were not, not to mention how many staff members do not have the permission to approve maps and many do not deal with that kind of thing, I know this because I talk to some staff members and they all would check with the approval team, and it is not about caring as I said, I asked Ditzy to approve phsc-urbanwar because I was getting no replies and the only problem was the dumb "too many lamps" thing Creeperhunter55 said, and he also did not really think taht was a problem and really helped me testing the map, but he still had to talk to the approval team, because there will still be the forum post and all of that and it gets kind of... strange.

You think that some maps were changed when they shouldn't be changed. That's your purely subjective opinion. I'm not aware of how the process of approving darkstar 1-glhf and phsc-urbanwar was going, so I cannot judge if CreeperHunter55's or Stryde's critique was fair or not just based on how you see those events. Map coda-wave, if it actually had micropixel backgrounds, shouldn't be approved as micropixel technology is not meant for PB2 official gameplay, but it was more of a fun purely unofficial ALE feature for custom maps. It may have a risk of unexpected bugs and lags and one of the goals of approval team is to make sure approved maps are bug and lag free. Map balem-station is approved. If you're talking about balem-danger, then you better go to his map approval post and discuss what is wrong or not wrong with it there. When I was saying you can go to other mods to get your map approved I meant people who can actually influence it, not just random mods who have no power or idea how things work.

phsc wrote:I disagree and have explained why, nobody would care about approving a map more than following staff rules and risking being kicked out, this is absurd and if staff members do this its literal corruption to an extent, your argument is so weak you are literally saying "you can ask staff members to break rules and be corrupt to get your map approved" and this is just out of touch with reality, it really shows how my point is strong, because you are just moving goalposts at this point.

It's not just about approving a map. It's about anything unjust or just wrong. You can ask a friend who has power to see if something can be done about it. Also I would not call it "corruption" because PB2 is not some sort of a country with its laws, police and etc. If Eric approves his own map without posting an approval request, would you call him corrupt? I hope not. Because it's just a flash game led by one single developer. Think simpler. You can only be kicked out if you get one of the admins or Eric really angry. Nobody else has a power to kick you out if you just come to Stryde and say "I don't agree with your judgement so I approved this guy's map that you rejected yesterday".

phsc wrote:He consistently makes extremely strange points, not explaining them in a good way as well, some examples I remember were him saying my map had too many lamps, which was very strange, the map is my urbanwar version and, in dense urban enviroments there are a lot of lamps, and the lamp decors, not even the lamp object, that could cause lag and all, another case which might be the worst was when he complained about darkstar 1-glhf having a lamp decor with a laser on top, which looks really cool, but he did not like it and wanted that changed? it ended up not being changed, but that is only one of the cases and I think darkstar's reputation and all greatly helped, another good case is his comment on a map I forgot, I think it was by nastypop, he said that "movement felt weird" or something similar, and did not go deep, what the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce is weird? and why is weird wrong? different does not mean wrong or bad.

I don't know the context of the situation. I only see you not liking someone's critique. It doesn't prove me anything. If he doesn't explain things properly then ask him to explain them properly. Besides I think some of critique was just design suggestions that you can follow or not follow if you don't want, not a strict order "change this or no approve".

phsc wrote:This post is kind of an exception, because it is THE Max Teabag, the top 1 map maker, the PB2 legend, if it was some generic dude who has like 15 LDR and has been playing the game for two years, no matter how strong his points are, it probably would just be ignored.

You say things don't change if you just talk about them, then immediately after you admit things can change while additionally making false assuption that it only happens when big names talk about it. You cannot take your assuptions as absolute truth or prediction of the future. I believe if it was anyone else this topic would still get the needed attention because there problems people want to talk about. It's not just one single Max teabag who noticed the problem and want to talk about it. Other people are concerned about it as well. Sure if you have "Max teabag" in your name it gives extra weight to the things you say. That's how society works, I do not doubt it. But his opinion is not determinant when it comes to changes. Opinion of people who play this game affects the final result more than opion of one single person.

phsc wrote:You did not get my point, at all, actually this is a strawman, because you are repyling to an argument I did not make, a 10 year old is not a retard, and if he is unable to use swords to jump, how do you expect him to be able to put his cursor over someone and hit them? it is intuitive, you try to jump and fail, you might try using X or shooting or using swords, because you can feel the difference in weight when you walk, I actually went out and did this experiment, I got my mom to play PB2 and told her to try to grab the high ledge of each side of stryde-sniper, the one near the middle but not the center one, and she was able to by using swords in a few seconds, my mom, who plays no games, at all, also if you are unable to walljump, should walljumping be removed from approved maps? because I am pretty sure some still have it, and this gets to the actual point I'm making, who gives a deliciously exquisite pizza sauce about that? it is ranked, competitive play for PB2, approved maps, they can play and just be beat, just like every game works, in League of Legends when you suck you just go to Bronze or Iron and stay there until you learn, and then you climb, perfectly fine, why should it differ in PB2? it is literal bad game design that limits high level play, it is not a cognitive bias because I literally said that the 10 year old is a retard and wouldn't know everything I know, but I think you are just trying to win this instead of trying to achieve truth, what about not allowing people to use X on ranked matches because a noob might be unable to? why not limit all maps to a single weapon, because noobs might not be able to change weapons? what about removing defibrilators because noobs might not know it causes little damage and can heal, what about removing the ability to move because noobs might not be able to move? it is such a pathetic argument that can be taken ad infinitum and then you see the scale is arbitrary and really, it's just a pathetic point.

This is not strawman fallacy. This is curse of knowledge. You said "It is not even about selfboosting, it gets to such a low level, like deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sword boosting, do they not have their deliciously exquisite pizza sauce mouse buttons working or what?" I replied that you expect them to know how to do the moves you can do. You expect them to think the way you think. You expect them to learn quick when it all seems so simple to you. When it reality some people, especially unexperienced and young ones learn things very slow. By sword boosting you meant swinging swords up to jump higher, correct? If you are talking about just higher jumping when there is no gun equipped, this is an issue as well because some people don't pay attention to small details like that you can jump higher when gun is not equipped. They just may not notice small things that seem obvious to you. It is curse of knowledge cognitive bias that you keep not noticing. Another bias of yours is your mom argument. It's called availability bias. You think that if your mom can make it, everybody else can make it. But in reality not everyone is your mom, not everyone can do what your mom can do. Don't take one example and use it as proof of something you think is certain. Comparing PB2 to other games is a subject of another topic. You want ranked section to be more suitable for pro players, I understand it. But it's not what Eric wants it to be. He wants it to be newbie-friendly. Also nobody was suggesting to limit all maps to a single weapon or not allowing people to use X on ranked matches. It's just your guess of what can be done if you take everything to absurd. Please provide reasons for this assumption of yours: "but I think you are just trying to win this instead of trying to achieve truth". Because I don't think so. It seems to be just another random assuption that has no ground for.

phsc wrote:Skill cap is skill capacity, the maximum a player can go, in PB2 it gets to self boosting, wall boosting, water boosting, that kind of stuff, back then you could abuse lag and that did give you an advantage, it is technique, just like every game has skill aspects to them, it gives an advantage for those with practice and knowledge, which should be fair, right? just like every single competitive game that exists, the player that tries to learn more and understand more gets an advantage, PB2 wants to do the opposite, turns out all those games that do that have extremely vivid competitive communities and are also very popular, even for bad players, of course you can take it to multiple levels, League of Legends is easier than DOTA and is also more popular, but the competitive side of DOTA is way more extreme and has the biggest esports prize pool, because of the skill expression possible.

Pros can still win a fight in modern maps because they are more experienced. New approval rules just make maps playable for newbies, but it doesn't limit player's professionalism. It just became easier to reach certain spots on the map. You can still self boost, wall boost, water boost in there. We don't have two separated multiplayers for newbies and pros so we need to find balance while creating maps. It's PB2. If you want it to be different then talk to Eric.

phsc wrote:The biggest issue is that if you are a creative map maker you can just make custom maps, look at Max Teabag or Mrnat444, they made maps for approval play but end up just working at more interesting custom map mechanics, because ranked is limiting and not fun in general, again I will use Balem as the example, his map got ignored, he then got banned, and probably would not really enjoy making combat maps, mostly after he learns triggers and all, and I think his maps are pretty interesting and play different from most.

Custom maps are always a bigger room for creativity. It's always been like that. Ranked isn't supposed to be more entertaining than custom maps because the only purpose of ranked maps is to shoot and get kills while in custom maps your goals can be entirely different leaving you more options on how to have fun. If Max teabag and Mrnatt444 really switched to custom maps then it's their choice. If they want to make unique creative ranked maps they, as I said before, need to find the balance to match the rules enforced by approval team and Eric in order to satisfy all groups of possible players including newbies. Balem's map was approved. Also you didn't answer what creative map makers left the game because they couldn't get an approved map.

phsc wrote:Map approval implies limits, rules, and rules are limiting, if you are a creative person who wants freedom, why not create custom maps? and that seems to happen, again, Max Teabag and Mrnat444.

Map approval implies limits, but you can still make a creative approved map if you're good at map making. Recall Mingo1's example. You can create both custom or approved map depending on your wish.

phsc wrote:You make a point and do not explain it in the main point, so the main point has no valid epistemological value, because... it's base does not exist, yes many possible reasons, but in general, you can see they go from approved maps to custom maps, and the creative maps always end up being the custom ones.

The main point has no value because I needed to explain reasons why people are leaving PB2? What? Creative maps do not always end up being custom one. It's another assumption of yours that doesn't show how things really work. Mingo1's example, again.

phsc wrote:I have explained why! because there are limits and it to an extent is a circlejerk, it is not a burden of proof inversion, also this gets to a more serious debate which is, truth is not a false dichotomy, saying it is their fault is an affirmation, as is saying it is not their fault, let me explain:
It is their fault - you know that it is their fault, somehow, explain that.
It is not their fault - you know it is not their fault, somehow you know that there is a NOT modifier there, explain why.
This gets a little bit more complicated, but I did explain why! also, my comment came after yours! so this makes no sense in general, the general idea is that staff limits creativity, by making rules and limiting what maps can be approved or cannot be, sometimes by very arbitrary and personal views, a good example being Creeperhunter55, it also happens for maps to stay approved, a good example is stryde-sniper, where you cannot grab the ledge I refered earlier without jumping and firing a weapon, does that really differ from sword jumping? it is literally the same mechanic, just with a different weapon, it is actually harder because you have to shoot down.

I don't see any serious problem with aprooval team and how they operate. They look after quality and newbies accessibility of approved maps. I haven't seen a single unjustly rejected map. Approval limits do not stop creative people from creating good maps and getting them approved. If you don't like CreeperHunter55's critique, you can argue with him. Stryde-sniper shouldn't stay approved for that reason then.

phsc wrote:Again, you made your post before I made mine! same deal as before, here is the thing, limitation can actually be a really interesting challenge to overcome, see, when it is not a limit that is an arbitrary rule but instead trying to be effective, it is a thing people generally seem to like, there are a lot of people that try to make computer programs run in extremely effective ways in some times bad hardware in computer science, the same thing applies, I myself have a ton of PB2 projects, and have made some, a good example would be my dino map, but some others I want/wanted to make are the first Final Fantasy game, the first Submachine game, and a copy of Escape from Tarkov in PB2, and yes, it lags, and it is pretty complicated to even work within the editor, and that is what makes it fun, why not just use some engine and remake FF1? I could use RPG maker or whatever? because it is too easy, also, Mrnat did make his map, even if it lags! and lag is also very relative, depending on who is running what.

I wasn't talking about how to overcome limits. I was saying that it's hard to stay motivated in this game when you can't make what you want without lags and bugs. So it's hard to attract new creative player to this game to fill the gap. And it gives people extra reason to leave it.

phsc wrote:You need to learn more about epistemology, you are applying a NOT modifier to a sentence, you are working with a very primitive view of truth, coming from the law of the excluded middle, which Russell even has a problem with, and is to an extent a false dichotomy itself.
In this case, Russell's teapot doesn't apply because it is a thing that we can know, it is not literally impossible, as it does not in the other one, while they still are burden of proof inversions, that does not mean what I'm saying is wrong as well!

You said "-you say the criteria for approval are not wrong (you dont explain why!)" implying that criteria for approval are wrong in your opinion. I didn't see any hard evidence for them being wrong. I asked you to prove your point.

phsc wrote:You indirectly were speaking for all of them, and well yeah you cannot speak for all of them, it is obvious, this is about the majority! yeah it is all subjective, but there are more common cases, such as the vast majority of people who create a ton of approved maps (such as Avre and kubakuba) doing it for LDR, while most creative people do end up creating more custom maps.

How was I speaking for all of them? You cannot assume they are making it only for LDR. Do you have proof for it? Creative people don't end up creating custom maps. If they want to create a custom map - they create custom map. If they want to create an approved map - they create approved map. If they want to create a creative approved map - they create creative approved map. I've mentioned the example. It's all about specific people, not about the limits.

phsc wrote:I think that being creative when it comes to approved maps is very hard, I think the most creative map I've seen was that Silent Phoenix map you can go to another dimension in eg-rw, the gameplay got very interesting, and I am unsure if that map is approved, and it very likely would not be approved today, see the problem?
EDIT: the map was deleted?
I think that while ch55's maps and lonewolf's maps are interesting, they do not play that interesting, it is more about looks than how they actually play, Sector Eight is imo quite generic, I don't think that ch55-dm or ch55-citadel or ch55-idk or ch55-ch play in very different ways from most modern maps, the most creative one is probably ch55-ch but it reminds me of that Cahir map, area 51? 52? with the teleporters and all, I think that is what PB2 needs, a Cahir of the current generation, he for sure made some creative maps for his time!

Nobody said it's easy to make a good approved map. Silent Phoenix's egrw1 remake is deleted because it is not fair towards new and pro players as player does not have a chance to predict where his enemy will appear due to demension teleport system. It's not how competitive maps work. In competitive maps you have at least a small chance to see the enemy before engaging combat or know the area where he can randomly appear (open areas, teleports, etc). In Silent Phoenix's egrw1 map it is pure random kills fest. People teleport from nowhere hoping to get free kills. Add lag and client-side factor to it and you will get a chaos. Your opinion on how certain CreeperHunter55's or LoneWolf56's map is played is subjective. I think they are pretty fun to play. Of course I'm not speaking about all of their maps, but just some of them. For example lonewolf56-hexwar and creeperhunter55-ts. We already have "Cahirs" of our generation. You just don't notice them. You're probably just nostalgic about the old days where everything and everyone seemed better.

Star Fox McCloud wrote:@XElijah yeah. hey, do you notice that there hasn’t been an approved match filled with 16 players since September? We think one “special” map has been removed silently to kill that, u know what im sayin?? :roll:

No, I don't. I haven't seen any custom matches filled with that amount of players as well.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 1 November 2020, 19:16

xElijah wrote:We cannot know for sure if removing stryde-sniper would lead to such consequences. Playing custom version of stryde-sniper is not an issue as we are talking about ranked section activity right now, not custom section activity. Nobody was talking about removing sniper genre or banning semi automatic weapons from the game. It was only your assumption. Removing stryde-sniper is a risk, but I believe this risk is worth it as it might give give ranked section a new life when people would finally start to discover and play other maps.

In the past, removing approved maps has lead to them being played as custom maps, the best example that came to my mind is xfrostbytex-matrixsniper, removing stryde-sniper is an issue because people will not be playing ranked, they will be playing custom, yes, more people will see other maps, but there will in general be less people playing ranked, but even then, it does not mean more people will be playing other maps! because sniper is a genre and a ton of sniper maps are similar, stryde-sniper is very similar to stryde-sniper2 and almost always those who like stryde-sniper like stryde-sniper2, not to mention that people might make new maps that might be similar to stryde-sniper for approval because it is an extremely popular map, so either the creator could get a ton of LDR from it or just be able to play a similar map in ranked, the issue would not be solved, you will ask "OOO WE CANT KNOW FOR SUREE" while we also cannot know for sure about anything you are saying, it is all about speculation, also this is going nowhere, stryde-sniper is not getting removed, and it is not a problem, I really see how you like saiyng "ooo its your subjective opinion" (fun fact, since the view of reality is subjective, and read Kant for that, your view that my opinion is subjective is also subjective, because someone can view my opinion as objective or whatever, I mean all opinions are subjective otherwise all of this makes no sense, that includes yours, this is not relevant to the discussion and overly deep into philosophy to the point it is completely irrelevant), anyways, the biggest issue with this risk is that, the only way of knowing is acting, and in the past similar actions did not lead to new maps being played more, and if we take some arena maps that were removed, similar ones started being played, this gets to a more general affirmation and kind of hard to give names because it all happened a long time ago, but I remember there was a map that was similar to raffine-urbanwar as in, why people playied it, the camping spot on the top right, there was a big camping spot on the map that gave players there a big advantage and it was extremely hard to counter, I think that map got unapproved and then people started playing raffine-urbanwar to get their rank positions and all, the examples I gave are general examples of how this tendency happens, people want what they want, of course if it is literally impossible to get what they want, they will have to roll with something else, this does not mean they will play different maps because of that, they can just leave, or they might seek for similar maps, got the point? this is a general tendency in psychology, this is a bit different with kids (check Openess in Big 5), since they generally are more open to new ideas, but are the ones who play stryde-sniper kids and would they be higher in openess to such a high degree? based on my experience with the general kind of people that play approved maps, I'd say no.

I did not say Kiriakos did not playtest the maps. I only said that map approval was a very quick procedure without proper control. If messaging staff members was against the rules, then why did people do that and it worked (not for all of them, but for some)? The fact that Stryde and other concerned people took control over map approval allowed us to jump from maps like this to maps like this. This is "progress". If this isn't progress then I think we have different definitions of this word. What things did become worse in map approval process exactly? That you have to set walls close enough to each so you are able to grab the ledge with a gun? What is wrong with it? Eric wanted ranked section to be newbie-friendly and this rule allows maps to be newbie-friendly. I don't see any problem with it. If you can't make a good map without breaking this rule it only means that you aren't really good as a map maker. Just like I said before - find the solution, find the balance and there will be no issue. An example would be what Mingo1 mentioned - CreeperHunter55's map.

Proper control is not inherently a good thing, also, burden of proof time! why is proper control good? if you are defending it, then explain it, anyways, the time playtesting was actually quite similar in MY experience, this gets to the biggest problem, corruption! way before the forums, as far as I know, getting maps approved was way terrible and all, and pretty much was all about knowing staff members or having extremely popular maps, what happens is that, as time went by, staff seems to be less corrupt and adhering more to the rules, this is one of them, it also depends on specific individuals, also, killing is agaisn't the rules, why do people do it and why does it work???? an ever better example, why is political corruption agaisn't the rules and why does it work? see the problem, no real way of solving a problem if the authorities that should be punishing wrongdoers are the wrongdoers, I actually am unsure if it was a formal rule but I remember I wanted to PM Doomwrath and Silent Aurora for map approval really back then and I remember getting the knowledge that I shouldn't because of rules, and well, PROGRESS! ok, so here is the thing, this is progress! progress is very relative as towards what, map quality is something very subjetive, which is a deal you seem to be ignoring quite a bit with the kind of assertions you make, but anyways, the game has progressed a lot, in a more objective way, it has more features, it has more weapons, it has more triggers, it has more options for making decorations, some actually would say that is bad but, there is more to work with to achieve what the map maker wants, and this is what truly made the map quality in general, according to my opinion and the approval criteria, get better, but did it really get better? so many options for colouring and visuals, and we still get extremely similar maps, you see the point? considering the increase in possibility, it is not all that amazing considering what you can do, a lot of maps are extremely similar, rule 4 again, also, if we talk about the quality of the map design, avre-underground has a ton of open line of sights and all of that to an extent goes agaisnt the code of conduct, kiriakos' map has less, also the first rate on kiriakos' map is from 2013, so the basic design is probably very old, and yeah, the map looks old, but mostly only visuals, is that real progress? I would not say completely, considering how the game has evolved, map makers did not progress as much, and this is why the general quality of ranked maps seems quite bad, also yes, grabbing a ledge with a gun is stupid and I have explained why, someone wanted to add such rule, and in general some people from even the approval team seem to think it is a dumb rule, that general kind of mentality for game design is extremely bad, and generally achieves failure, and now BALANCE, see, I already made the point, the game does not reward a high skill player well, because maps limit high skilled players, then we get pathetic communities such as PL, and an extremely boring game to watch at it's "high level", or even play, also I'd bet it was Tempus that made the edge grabbing rule and not Eric, I already made a ton of criticism to the map approval guidelines in a forum post I think around one year ago, but I don't remember where I posted it, and you cannot balance a map to give an edge to a skilled player over a not skilled player with a ton of the rules we have, is that balance? or is balance allowing someone who started playing after 1 minute to play as well as someone with thousands of hours into the game? is that good game design?

You think that some maps were changed when they shouldn't be changed. That's your purely subjective opinion. I'm not aware of how the process of approving darkstar 1-glhf and phsc-urbanwar was going, so I cannot judge if CreeperHunter55's or Stryde's critique was fair or not just based on how you see those events. Map coda-wave, if it actually had micropixel backgrounds, shouldn't be approved as micropixel technology is not meant for PB2 official gameplay, but it was more of a fun purely unofficial ALE feature for custom maps. It may have a risk of unexpected bugs and lags and one of the goals of approval team is to make sure approved maps are bug and lag free. Mitp balem-station is approved. If you're talking about balem-danger, then you better go to his map approval post and discuss what is wrong or not wrong with it there. When I was saying you can go to other mods to get your map approved I meant people who can actually influence it, not just random mods who have no power or idea how things work.

ALL MAP APPROVAL IS SUBJECITVE OPINION, see, there are "objective" criteria that are applied in extremely subjective ways and this is my biggest problem with map approval, it is extremely arbitrary and subjective, what exactly is not original? what exactly are the limits for things? what is too big of a line of fire? nobody explains that and it just gets extremely subjective and arbitrary, AND WHAT I AM SAYING IS OBJECTIVE WITHIN THAT, creeperhunter55 makes extremely arbitrary and subjective comments on map approval, it seems like you keep saying it is all subjective and all to make me invalid while literally all map criticism is subjective and arbitrary, INCLUDING THE RULES, why are the rules even right?
"micropixel backgrounds, shouldn't be approved as micropixel technology is not meant for PB2 official gameplay" there is no rule agaisn't this, at least I think, if it was added in the update to the code of conduct, it did not exist before at the time of coda-wave's approval request and I know that for sure, and now you are making rules! it seems like you are just baiting me, ignoring my points and acting like an autistic "ooo its subjective while i say more subjective stuff xd xd", and just because it is not intended (it actually is, you can run a function with the browser's console to use micropixels, and it even sends you a message talking about it! and literally, nothing changes other than it being smaller pixels, this is a very arbitrary rule, OOO IT IS NOT INTENDED SO WE DONT ALLOW IT, just because it is not originally intended for public use (and it is, because Eric made it way easier for people to work with micropixels), it does not mean it should not be used! it is simply a level editor feature, and some approved maps actually use micropixels! phsc-urbanwar does use them! slighty, and I think that creeperhunter55-citadel also uses them. It does not have unexpected bugs because it is the background, nothing can go wrong with it, otherwise things could go wrong with a 10 size decor or a 100 size one, there is nothing that can go wrong with it, it might get glitchy if you work with walls, it seems like you are just antagonizing me at this point, funny, also, lag is no measurable and this is another problem with the rules, what is laggy? creeperhunter55-citadel doesnt run properly on my mom's computer but stryde-sniper does, so remove creeperhunter55-citadel! also small backgrounds lag way less than literally a single entity, that includes weapons, it is literally the exact same as having a background object, and since coda-wave had manually made ones, there were not thousands of objects, it had the average decor count of a more detailed map, like phsc-sniper2, which has more than coda-wave had and nobody complains about lag or anything when talking about that map! I was talking about balem-danger, and well, the map cannot be discussed because the map forum post was locked! without balem getting a reply after making 4 updates to the map if I remember right, see the issue? but you will just keep antagonizing me in a biased way.

It's not just about approving a map. It's about anything unjust or just wrong. You can ask a friend who has power to see if something can be done about it. Also I would not call it "corruption" because PB2 is not some sort of a country with its laws, police and etc. If Eric approves his own map without posting an approval request, would you call him corrupt? I hope not. Because it's just a flash game led by one single developer. Think simpler. You can only be kicked out if you get one of the admins or Eric really angry. Nobody else has a power to kick you out if you just come to Stryde and say "I don't agree with your judgement so I approved this guy's map that you rejected yesterday".

Corruption as Wikipedia defines it is "Corruption is a form of dishonesty or criminal offense undertaken by a person or organization entrusted with a position of authority", applies to PB2, and this is the ultimate example of how you are just antagonizing me and going agaisnt what I say for no reason with extremely weak arguments, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS A COUNTRY OR ANYTHING, what matters is that, it is a set of rules, you are just setting it apart for an extremely arbitrary reason, that is also subjective as well! Eric owns the game, staff members do not, Eric can do any change he wants, including to the terms of service, and you are just making an extremely weak point ignoring what I said, you want people to deliciously exquisite pizza sauce get staff to be corrupt for map approval, and you are literally just making corruption relative and saying stryde doesnt bite, yeah you can ask, but nothing will get out of it, it is not about care or anything, this point is just so pathetic and you did not refute my argument, you actually have none, your argument does not involve actual map approval criteria or anything, it is literal corruption, and that corruption can acheive anything in PB2, including changing map approval criteria or like... literally anything, ridiculous.

I don't know the context of the situation. I only see you not liking someone's critique. It doesn't prove me anything. If he doesn't explain things properly then ask him to explain them properly. Besides I think some of critique was just design suggestions that you can follow or not follow if you don't want, not a strict order "change this or no approve".

His critique makes no sense when compared to the rules or anything, I asked him to explain it properly and he did not, and it was a strict order, he does not approve the map if you do not do what he wants, this seems to have changed a little, you know nothing about the inner workings of map approval so this could be a valid doubt, but it is kind of a huge circlejerk where people take extremely subjective criteria such as movement not flowing well and do not approve a map because of that, while the rules do not talk about it, this seems to be changing, and another issue is how private it is, making it extremely hard for someone to even get to talk to them or test with them.

You say things don't change if you just talk about them, then immediately after you admit things can change while additionally making false assuption that it only happens when big names talk about it. You cannot take your assuptions as absolute truth or prediction of the future. I believe if it was anyone else this topic would still get the needed attention because there problems people want to talk about. It's not just one single Max teabag who noticed the problem and want to talk about it. Other people are concerned about it as well. Sure if you have "Max teabag" in your name it gives extra weight to the things you say. That's how society works, I do not doubt it. But his opinion is not determinant when it comes to changes. Opinion of people who play this game affects the final result more than opion of one single person.

Strawman again! can you even reply to my actual points? if this keeps going it is just a waste of time, it actually is because you are just going agaisnt what I say with extremely weak points moving your goalposts and all, IT IS NOT A FALSE ASSUMPTION, because a lot of people have made posts about map approval and approval criteria and general rules and nothing changes, they get ignored, no discussion and no attention to it, but when MAX TEABAG, the legend makes a post, people's attention goes towards it, some posts by yizhe, Girl Power, and even me in the past, and often those got locked (this might happen if this "discussion" does not end by the way, if it doesnt it is because it is a Max Teabag topic that staff seems to like, because a ton of other discussion posts that got this deep into "argumentation" got locked in the past), it is working with what generally happens to predict what is likely to happen, hell, my critique to the map approval criteria got few replies and nothing changed.

This is not strawman fallacy. This is curse of knowledge. You said "It is not even about selfboosting, it gets to such a low level, like deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sword boosting, do they not have their deliciously exquisite pizza sauce mouse buttons working or what?" I replied that you expect them to know how to do the moves you can do. You expect them to think the way you think. You expect them to learn quick when it all seems so simple to you. When it reality some people, especially unexperienced and young ones learn things very slow. By sword boosting you meant swinging swords up to jump higher, correct? If you are talking about just higher jumping when there is no gun equipped, this is an issue as well because some people don't pay attention to small details like that you can jump higher when gun is not equipped. They just may not notice small things that seem obvious to you. It is curse of knowledge cognitive bias that you keep not noticing. Another bias of yours is your mom argument. It's called availability bias. You think that if your mom can make it, everybody else can make it. But in reality not everyone is your mom, not everyone can do what your mom can do. Don't take one example and use it as proof of something you think is certain. Comparing PB2 to other games is a subject of another topic. You want ranked section to be more suitable for pro players, I understand it. But it's not what Eric wants it to be. He wants it to be newbie-friendly. Also nobody was suggesting to limit all maps to a single weapon or not allowing people to use X on ranked matches. It's just your guess of what can be done if you take everything to absurd. Please provide reasons for this assumption of yours: "but I think you are just trying to win this instead of trying to achieve truth". Because I don't think so. It seems to be just another random assuption that has no ground for.

A cognitive bias does not make something wrong by the way, it just makes it easier to get to wrong results, it is not about the way I think, it is about the extremely basic gameplay mechanics that even the campaign teaches, also who the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce cares if they cannot learn? again it gets to the examples I made, make the game simpler because they might not think like that other retard, they might be even more retarded, and how is it even relevant? yeah we should make things for mentally handcapped people, so they can be good at the competitive side of the game, this is a joke from a game design point, you are assuming that I did not notice that, I did notice that and I think it is completely irrelevant, but you keep making the same weak points, and yes, the example with my mom is valid, it is one example? yes, but it is someone with literal no gaming experience, literally none, and again, bias is completely irrelevant! the point is, can someone who is unable to do such basic stuff or realize such basic patterns, get the priority? but the problem is how the rules are inconsistent, and there is also another problem with that rule, why do you need to get to all places of a map? what about having access to them, such as being able to shoot at them? the execution of the rule is also extremely bad, and well, if people might not realize that they can change weapons and all, tehy might not realize a laser might kill them! or that a pushing area exists at the side of map and keep walking there, so we must remove pushing fields, etc, comparing PB2 to another games is not another topic, it is completely relevant to map approval because the biggest issue with the game is how the game has very little players and ranked activity and that has a relation to map approval.
Just because it is not what Eric wants it to be (I am unsure if Eric actually made that rule, and as far as I know the staff approval team can change such rules and all and Eric allows them, so is this actually Eric's opinion???) but the bigger discussion is what it should be, not what it is, Eric is open minded and could change that, and the staff approval team seems to want to change the criteria completely (Stryde told me that in private messages), and that would include such rules, you literally do not understand ad absurdum or ad infinitum and do not understand that things generate results.
The general reason I think you are just going agaisnt me is how you are not changing your points even when they get ridiculous, the best example is the corruption one, you literally want players to be corrupt to get their maps approved, then why even discuss map approval is the criteria are going to be completely relevant if people can just abuse the power of authorities? why have rules if they have no value?

phsc wrote:Pros can still win a fight in modern maps because they are more experienced. New approval rules just make maps playable for newbies, but it doesn't limit player's professionalism. It just became easier to reach certain spots on the map. You can still self boost, wall boost, water boost in there. We don't have two separated multiplayers for newbies and pros so we need to find balance while creating maps. It's PB2. If you want it to be different then talk to Eric.

It does limit professionalism, you cannot have areas that only skilled players can access to make plays, this is more relevant when you take approval ranked matches, which are pretty much only played by the elite, and pretty dead nowdays, and of course, Plazma League, this is an issue that, makes so all maps end up being similar in skill cap, if you play some game, some things are harder and others are easier, some maps are more complicated and others are less, it is part of game deisng, players can choose what maps they play, if they think a map is unfair for their skill level, they can just not play it, the issue is that it limits the top of the playerbase, making room for the bottom, making things too noob friendly is extremely bad game design because it is frustrating for the good players... because there is just little to care about, little to improve, and we get a game that has a small competitive community that is also not that high skilled, which contributes to the game dying, mostly when it is a game that mostly has an active playerbase with some new kids coming in casually, but at some point that new income will stop or get extremely lower (death of flash and all) and if the elite does not exist, the game kind of dies, this is what kept games like DOTA 1 or Heroes of Newerth quite alive even after years after they were made and generally speaking better games were already around.

Custom maps are always a bigger room for creativity. It's always been like that. Ranked isn't supposed to be more entertaining than custom maps because the only purpose of ranked maps is to shoot and get kills while in custom maps your goals can be entirely different leaving you more options on how to have fun. If Max teabag and Mrnatt444 really switched to custom maps then it's their choice. If they want to make unique creative ranked maps they, as I said before, need to find the balance to match the rules enforced by approval team and Eric in order to satisfy all groups of possible players including newbies. Balem's map was approved. Also you didn't answer what creative map makers left the game because they couldn't get an approved map.

Well, then it gets to the same issue, we will get the same extremely generic approved maps by kubakuba instead of something innovative like that Silent Phoenix map I mentioned, a good example of a map maker I consider creative is Balem, another one is actually myself! hell, even Ditzy to an extent could fit that, I think his maps play very different from others and he dislikes the general atmosphere of map approval as far as I know, I talk to most of these daily so I know that for sure, but the two ultimate examples would be me and Balem, you can say that maybe I am not that creative but I do think I am, some maps like phsc-sniper2 are pretty different from most sniper maps, and phsc-urbanwar plays different from most arena maps, phsc-sniper is pretty generic (but it is way older than the other two), also creative or not is very relative and subjective, but Max Teabag actually went out to say he likes most of my maps and most of Ditzy's maps, and in general people seem to think such maps play pretty well and to an extent different from most maps, so I would say the general consensus for those who discuss on the forum and all is that I am pretty creative? Ditzy at least is for sure, and Balem is a quite new map maker but I think his maps play in a quite interesting way, that differs from other maps, and I think that is creative.

Map approval implies limits, but you can still make a creative approved map if you're good at map making. Recall Mingo1's example. You can create both custom or approved map depending on your wish.

This is outside of the discussion, the thing is, Max Teabag said that maps are generally very generic and boring, and do not differ a lot from the general ones, the rules contribute to that, being able to create custom maps or try to work out something nice out of the rules is possible, but it is less likely, and there is also less of a reason for you to try to make a very nice combat map approved instead of custom, think of that laggy Mrnat map you mentioned, it could have some features in approved gameplay (would never be approved, and in that case the map is laggy and at times even buggy), but something similar with some interesting mechanics would never be approved.

The main point has no value because I needed to explain reasons why people are leaving PB2? What? Creative maps do not always end up being custom one. It's another assumption of yours that doesn't show how things really work. Mingo1's example, again.

That is not what I said, you have to justify what you say, even if it is a NOT modifier, why are they maybe leaving for other games?
It is not an assumption it is a fact, how many creative maps do you see around? the biggest issue is that, our definitions of creative seem to greatly differ, but it has been a really long time since I've seen a ranked map that plays in a different way, and for sure Mrnat's approved maps play very differently and are out of the norm, but instead he makes unranked maps, hell, even Hexagon/Lonewolf56 stopped making approved maps to instead focus on custom maps, another example could be someone like Cahir, who also stopped making approved maps to work on custom maps, even if that was a long time ago, and the list goes on, Max Teabag, Krutz (to an extent), even Stryde who kind of stopped making approved maps a while back when I was in BoZ, and now mostly reworks his older maps but now seems to be a bit more active, pretty much everyone! The only exception I can think of is Creeperhunter55 and to an extent Balem if he did not get mad at the approval criteria and get banned and get ignored as well.

I don't see any serious problem with aprooval team and how they operate. They look after quality and newbies accessibility of approved maps. I haven't seen a single unjustly rejected map. Approval limits do not stop creative people from creating good maps and getting them approved. If you don't like CreeperHunter55's critique, you can argue with him. Stryde-sniper shouldn't stay approved for that reason then.

I already have said some I think had to be greatly changed or were ignored or removed, and it literally does limit them! you are not explaining why it does not limit them! there is literal limits! also I have argued with CH55 a lot, and well, stryde-sniper maybe shouldnt be approved! but I think a total of 4 removal requests were made and nothing ever happened to it, the issue with arguing is that very often you get ignored or literally no points are made, like you are making some points but Creeperhunter55 starts simply making fun of what oyu are saying and like, he said I deliciously exquisite pizza sauce farmed or something realy dumb I cannot remember, literally taking it ad hominem per se (I have called you a retard on this but that is not my point, so it is not ad hominem, more like a way of me expressing my despise for you because I think you are simply holding onto weak points, while some are not bad, and that is why I am still discussing with you!), Stryde generally ignores replies, but he seems to be getting better, Kiriakos is just a bit inactive and makes very few arguments and generally ignores what people say and seems to care more about who is saying what, general problems of the map approval team in my experience, the best of all seems to be Nyove, who is not the most active one.
The general issue is, you are not explaining why it does not stop people from making approved maps! the burden of proof is at you! here is the thing, if there are limits that greatly limit what can be done, such as gun mods, and complex triggerworks not being really allowed, maps like that Silent Phoenix one I mentioned or maybe some maps with interesting modded gun mechanics would never be approved, and those would be out of the general tendency for approved map making and be creative! but what can you even do currently that is creative? the issue is how we are defining creativity I think, show me some examples of creative maps made after the more intense approval criteria (I am unsure if I think Creeperhunter's maps are creative, I agree with Lonewolf's maps being tho), and explain what can be done taht is creative with the current limits! but even then, creativity is a lot about doing what is different to what is generally accepted at a time, and a map with very different gameplay, and that can be achieved in easier ways with triggers and gameplay modifications and all, are not allowed, making it extremely hard for creative maps to be made, which makes so people end up working on custom maps, you might mention balance here, is it fair to have custom guns and all? I think that of course some gun that fires extremely fast BNG projectiles is deliciously exquisite pizza sauce cancer, but I've had many ideas that involve modded guns for competitive play, and I don't think it would end being not balanced, maybe for the new players (where the rules target), and this is the biggest issue, the rules that limit map makers! you cannot make am ap that invovles like self obosting or rocket jumping or whatever at it's core, and that owuld play vastly different from most generic maps we have today! or make a map that has differnet gun mechanics, because there is a correlation betwen damage and rate of fire, and the general impact bullets have on the obdy and all, that could make for a ton of maps that play in extremely different ways! a lot of variables are limited, so generally speaking, approved map making is limited, and I think that the rules that limit them are bad, I will come back to this point later when you mention Cahir.

phsc wrote:I wasn't talking about how to overcome limits. I was saying that it's hard to stay motivated in this game when you can't make what you want without lags and bugs. So it's hard to attract new creative player to this game to fill the gap. And it gives people extra reason to leave it.

I do think that is true, but it is also one of the reasons to stay playing it, and it is mostly why I still play it, and hell, maybe the limits that approval bring could fit that? the motivation to overcome limits for personal gratification? but yeah, I agree with you to an extent, but if you are creative, as in you can think of multiple possibilities, you can minimize lag and make things work, this is quite the same as saying you can balance maps with the current criteria as you say, you can, but it is not easy!

You said "-you say the criteria for approval are not wrong (you dont explain why!)" implying that criteria for approval are wrong in your opinion. I didn't see any hard evidence for them being wrong. I asked you to prove your point.

The forum post I made, when I say wrong I say more from a game design point, and to an extent literally inconsistent at times, or plain arbitrary in how it all works, I actually found the forum post I made, http://plazmaburst2.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9&p=200673
The issue with this discussion (and any discussion) is that it all ends up being an opinion, you cannot apply logic to this game, or literally anything on life to an extent (Hume's guillotine) as an objective way to determine if things are right, but ok, the map approval criteria have been updated, but a lot of the rules have no real reasoning behind them as well.

How was I speaking for all of them? You cannot assume they are making it only for LDR. Do you have proof for it? Creative people don't end up creating custom maps. If they want to create a custom map - they create custom map. If they want to create an approved map - they create approved map. If they want to create a creative approved map - they create creative approved map. I've mentioned the example. It's all about specific people, not about the limits.

Proof means nothing in this case, because none has any epistemical value to it, I could just edit a screenshot of kubakuba saying he makes maps for LDR only, and then I'd "win" this, same for Avre, but I am honest and will not, beware this kind of need for proof, and there is literally no way to know why people do things for sure, but we can speculate and at times it is quite obvious why, a good example is kubakuba, he used to copy maps that were popular and tried to make a lot of publicity about them, trying to get rates and all, and did not really care about the quality of the maps very often, this did get better but I do think he cares mostly about LDR, Avre on the other hand I am unsure, we cannot know for sure, but it seems quite obvious, also a ton of newer map developers really care about LDR and a ton want their maps approved because of that, just read the PB2 discord (kubakuba used to fit this, being a newer player that is now a map maker that seems to seek LDR, I've never seen him say that in public tho)
Also, you were saying that "Creative people just leave the game." which is applying to all map makers (I mean, there are creative players that are not map makers, but it seems like you were refering to the creative map makers because that is the general topic, of course there are creative players and they might also leave the game, but it seems a bit irrelevant to this because no arguments about the actual game and creative people were made, only about map approval and map making).

Nobody said it's easy to make a good approved map. Silent Phoenix's egrw1 remake is deleted because it is not fair towards new and pro players as player does not have a chance to predict where his enemy will appear due to demension teleport system. It's not how competitive maps work. In competitive maps you have at least a small chance to see the enemy before engaging combat or know the area where he can randomly appear (open areas, teleports, etc). In Silent Phoenix's egrw1 map it is pure random kills fest. People teleport from nowhere hoping to get free kills. Add lag and client-side factor to it and you will get a chaos. Your opinion on how certain CreeperHunter55's or LoneWolf56's map is played is subjective. I think they are pretty fun to play. Of course I'm not speaking about all of their maps, but just some of them. For example lonewolf56-hexwar and creeperhunter55-ts. We already have "Cahirs" of our generation. You just don't notice them. You're probably just nostalgic about the old days where everything and everyone seemed better.

Well, considering modern map making, you could make an indicator of where the enemy player is in the alterantive dimension in the main one, so the map could work, also predicting where they will appear is possible, since you can think as if you were the player, and this is where skill comes in, predicting where someone invisible is is a thing that happens a lot in games, because there is always the most optimal play according to your own opinion, and generally there is a consensus, this creates a way higher skill cap where people ahve to constantly think like the other player, which would be really cool to see, because then we could have PogChamp plays and PB2 montages where people predict a player they have experience playing with, in extremely virtuous ways, and this is what I think PB2 needs, also an opinion is by definition subjective! casual reminder! and that includes the approval team and anyone! including Eric! no need to say it is subjective because I know and it is irrelevant! I could actually go really deep on how epistemology is extremely dumb and how I think epistemological nihilism is the right "ideology" but this is overly complicated and not related to the topic as well, and it could get the topic locked because of what happened in the past! anyways, I am not nostalgic about maps being better, it is just that, compared to maps of their time, Cahir's maps were extremely innovative, and that Silent Phoenix' map also was, and mostly gameplay wise! that is the thing, we do have the Cahirs of our generation, Mrnat is an amazing map maker, comparing him to Cahir is hard but it is the closest it gets I think, and he is one who mostly makes custom maps, just like Cahir ended up doing.

Other notes I want to mention, this discussion is going nowhere, I will still reply but if you mention some points I think are pretty much already refuted, such as the "haha staff member care about map so they go corrupt haha" unless you make a really good point.
Action towards what has been said in this discussion will probably happen, also, about the validity of the rules this game follows, the consumers should pressure the one who offers the products so that product is closer to what they want, and that generally happens! and that seems to be able to happen with Plazma Burst 2, just because Eric said a rule is a way, it does not mean it should be, and I think most of these rules were actually by Tempus (not that relevant tho).

TLDR: I think the game should have a higher skill cap because it is in general my general preference and in a game design point of view it seems to be the best option for PB2 to stay alive and adapt to more modern gaming industry tendencies (maybe not for 2.5 or 3)
I think that the approval team is bad (mostly Creeperhunter55) because they take extermely arbitrary points and extremely subjective views on the rules and at times ignore maps and the way they test the maps is also extremely weird and they are a circlejerk.
I also think that approval criteria are limiting map makers because they are literally limits that create a tendency for people to want to create custom maps instead of approved creative ones, and at times even making map makers not want to make approved maps at all, maybe even stopping with map making in general.





I will also reply to lpzimm, I think both the "lore" aspect of the map and also the gameplay should be considered! and what order and to what extent is up to the map maker, but the quality should be high for both, and you are COMPLETELY RIGHT about criticism of the approval team, mostly when they deliciously exquisite pizza sauce up, all authority should be criticized, and if you cannot criticize them, something is probably going to go bad real soon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Tempus » 2 November 2020, 00:44

Hello everyone!

Before I start, I wanted to say that it's great to see you Max, I'm happy to read about the feedback regarding Map Making / Approving Maps. I also appreciate everyone's novels. Feedback allows us to improve our system so that we can create a better one.

I will do my best to break everything up, I unfortunately won't be able to respond to everyone's comments. The ones listed here I felt were important to me.


I stopped to write when you wrote "But there has clearly been an overreaction.".


Already, a lot of what you have already wrote, I can agree with you there. However, I'd like to explain the "Standards of Maps"

We are working on a "less strict - Approved Maps Icon"

Right now what we have is;

> Approved maps

> Maps in Rotation

------------------------------

Maps that are marked for approval are held to a standard. It is unfair to say that because of this, maps are forced to be a certain way, when gameplay has changed, literally. From the new netcode to new weapons to new triggers and timers. Therefore simply by that we needed to change how we present maps for players -- Ranked and Unranked.

Our vision for maps / Map Makers are; aesthetics, gameplay and strategy maps. For maps that want to be known as approved.

I doubt a map like DE_Dust2 would have been constructed without being tested, even though yes, it has a long line of sight, the map allows more than one points of attack in a main hallway, etc. Counter-Strike is a 3D game. Gameplay is a little bit different when compared to PB2's.

We are having some maps feel that they are the same, just re-skinned. That is why we implemented a Map Rotation, maps that are new can be played / with a new gameplay that is challenging.

Before I go further into detail, I'd like to mention that maps that request to be approved are reviewed by the PlayTest & Approval Teams.

PlayTest us usually a bunch of players who create maps... that provide feedback on other players maps and these PlayTest players usually have own maps that are currently being played over and over by the community. Therefore, I trust their opinions and feedback.

This falls now into our standards for maps.

viewtopic.php?f=167&t=24538#p211998

You can read it if you haven't already. I am sure you have. Having map standards prevents us from publishing maps that have 34 lights in a 2v2 map...

My personal opinion as a Map Approver myself, I look for design flaws. I don't want to be playing an Approved Ranked map and go to the edge and see the abyss. I see it as poor quality and makes me feel more of "Im playing in a box vs Playing in what is a laboratory or in a toxic missile factory. That's how I always viewed maps. I want them to be different. Sometimes an abyss can work for a map.

https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=988445


If you scroll down you will find a list of all the approved maps

https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?a=&s=7&ac ... &id=663495

These maps are different. But a held to a standard and a lot have needed to be reworked to fit the current playstyle.

--------------------------------------


It's a slap to the face to read "And dear approval team: get your finger out of your a**...!"

When the PlayTesters & Approval Team members , spend hours if not days, reviewing a players map, providing feedback to them that would after changes get their map approve. It's not like they are asking them to completely redesign their map, it's small changes that make a big impact on gameplay.

Anyways, It was a pleasure to speak with you Max.



From reading everyone's responses and feedback,

What I gather is

> Mainly mappers need to do a better job at mapping

> Staff need to be less strict on maps


-----

I think we need to compile what everyone can agree on. What needs to be looked at / changed and we go from there. I don't think it will do us any good to go back and forth at each other. I do believe in feedback and you should always challenge decisions that you feel are wrong. Unless a case is made against it defending it etc.

I think overall, everyone wants flexibility. We can make a rule for playtesters to test in groups vs one person. The best way to test a map is to stress test it.

Also, I saw a thing about lamps, most cases when we ask to change some stuff, it also falls into making the game load faster and run smoother, not just for gameplay to prevent caming or sparying.


Anyways, as someone that also said, there is no point to go around and around.

I think we have a lot of great ideas here and people who are passionate about this. I'd like to hear what can be done to fix this and what we can do to improve.


As always a pleasure,

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 2 November 2020, 00:52

Tempus wrote:You can read it if you haven't already. I am sure you have. Having map standards prevents us from publishing maps that have 34 lights in a 2v2 map...
Also, I saw a thing about lamps, most cases when we ask to change some stuff, it also falls into making the game load faster and run smoother, not just for gameplay to prevent caming or sparying.

The lamp criticism Creeperhunter55 made were not about the lamp objects that can cause lag, it was the lamp decoration, and it was not an excessive amount that had no impact on lag or gameplay, and in the other case, it was a purely visual combination with lasers, just to let you know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Tempus » 2 November 2020, 00:55

phsc wrote:
Tempus wrote:You can read it if you haven't already. I am sure you have. Having map standards prevents us from publishing maps that have 34 lights in a 2v2 map...
Also, I saw a thing about lamps, most cases when we ask to change some stuff, it also falls into making the game load faster and run smoother, not just for gameplay to prevent caming or sparying.

The lamp criticism Creeperhunter55 made were not about the lamp objects that can cause lag, it was the lamp decoration, and it was not an excessive amount that had no impact on lag or gameplay, and in the other case, it was a purely visual combination with lasers, just to let you know.


Yeah, I understand. This was not relevant to your situation with hunter. I was talking about another map that kiri and I reviewed a few months ago. I think the actual amount of laps the map had was in the 50s. I just was a ridiculous amount for a small map.
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby DestroyerV2 » 2 November 2020, 02:45

i think ranked approval maps have degraded to a point where those map makers no longer care about player experience and choose stupid and ineffective gun combinations that only look cool and fit the theme on paper, but when in real matches, those utterly horrid gun choices deter all the players away, that is the main reason why most people only play stryde sniper nowadays. those that make these kind of maps( they could deny but at the end of the day, they know in heart whats the true reason they make this kind of maps) the only care about how many approved maps they have and how much Ldr they can get , they don't make the maps with players who will end up playing in mind, they don't care whether they might get a decent KD in the map or not, as long as it looks cool and stuff, they will make it. Thats the sad truth of the intentions behind making approved maps( yeah sure they playtest it, but do they say stuff like "i didnt get a good enough kd so this cannot be approved" or "this kd is very bad so the map cannot be put for approval"? No they don't.
As for designs, since every map has its own different design, this means that having "unique designs" has became a futile and useless way to stand out, this said, those maps end up being played the same way with no innovative features and i doubt this is due to the map approval requirements, in fact , map makers would say there is no need for it, after all its just extra work for them when they are just after the ldr and could do without it. Maps that are so called "unique" are truthfully not unique, those maps are so LDR-minded and just differ from other maps in terms of design. There are no differences in gameplay. I remember this map called blade--rw( i forgot the name so it might be wrong) or something that had the ability for players to teleport around that i gotta admit is a thousand times more unique in gameplay than these new approved maps. There are currently NO new approved maps that have any form of gameplay differences or unique selling points. This is the sad truth.
Another thing is when they say stuff like "you can say points that you disagree with about your approved map" or anything that you disagree with in general to the approval team, you are gravely wrong. from what i see, the approval team are nothing less than tyrants and if you were to argue with logic and facts, well... nothing will happen as they only listen to themselves and don't know a thing about playing ranked and stuff. they dont see any hypocrisy in any of their statements or any form of biased judgement. Yeah sure you can say it to them but will they listen? No. It happened to me before so i would say that they only say that to put on a show and display or good they are. But...... They are not what they seem to be. I'm done with my points

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Tempus » 2 November 2020, 03:39

DestroyerV2 wrote:
Spoiler: Show More
i think ranked approval maps have degraded to a point where those map makers no longer care about player experience and choose stupid and ineffective gun combinations that only look cool and fit the theme on paper, but when in real matches, those utterly horrid gun choices deter all the players away, that is the main reason why most people only play stryde sniper nowadays. those that make these kind of maps( they could deny but at the end of the day, they know in heart whats the true reason they make this kind of maps) the only care about how many approved maps they have and how much Ldr they can get , they don't make the maps with players who will end up playing in mind, they don't care whether they might get a decent KD in the map or not, as long as it looks cool and stuff, they will make it. Thats the sad truth of the intentions behind making approved maps( yeah sure they playtest it, but do they say stuff like "i didnt get a good enough kd so this cannot be approved" or "this kd is very bad so the map cannot be put for approval"? No they don't.
As for designs, since every map has its own different design, this means that having "unique designs" has became a futile and useless way to stand out, this said, those maps end up being played the same way with no innovative features and i doubt this is due to the map approval requirements, in fact , map makers would say there is no need for it, after all its just extra work for them when they are just after the ldr and could do without it. Maps that are so called "unique" are truthfully not unique, those maps are so LDR-minded and just differ from other maps in terms of design. There are no differences in gameplay. I remember this map called blade--rw( i forgot the name so it might be wrong) or something that had the ability for players to teleport around that i gotta admit is a thousand times more unique in gameplay than these new approved maps. There are currently NO new approved maps that have any form of gameplay differences or unique selling points. This is the sad truth.
Another thing is when they say stuff like "you can say points that you disagree with about your approved map" or anything that you disagree with in general to the approval team, you are gravely wrong. from what i see, the approval team are nothing less than tyrants and if you were to argue with logic and facts, well... nothing will happen as they only listen to themselves and don't know a thing about playing ranked and stuff. they dont see any hypocrisy in any of their statements or any form of biased judgement. Yeah sure you can say it to them but will they listen? No. It happened to me before so i would say that they only say that to put on a show and display or good they are. But...... They are not what they seem to be. I'm done with my points



Hi Destroyer,

If there has ever been a problem where you found some kind of decision unfair, please contact me.

Outside of the PlayTest Team and Approval Team there still are Site Admins like myself. People complain about unfair/ unjust treatment, but I haven't seen any reports about this. I'm saying, please reach out to me if there is anything that needs to be done that hasn't. Anyone can Inbox me or @me on discord.

I don't see the PlayTest Team or Approval Team as "tyrants". PlayTest team are regular map makers like yourself who have a lot of say when it comes to approving maps. As a small example, before they were made team members, Stryde & Hunter have made some great maps and have put a lot of work to get maps approved and looked at.

My point that I'm making, the Approval team listens to your feedback about our feedback on maps that need to be edited. We even have an option for anyone to make "Edit Requests", to make changes to maps that aren't even your own, you might have a better idea on how to approve it etc. I encourage you to use that and seriously help us :P

Anyways, that's just my thoughts.

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby DestroyerV2 » 2 November 2020, 07:09

From my experience the approval team has done a lot of questionable stuff and to say that you can "argue" your valid points is plain bs. the way of thinking that the approval team has is far from perfect and when they say invalid points? what do they do when you tell them that the points are invalid???? they will threaten to reject your map and force you to listen to their questionable feedback. i think i experienced that before and that has made me really attuned to this type of tyrant behaviour. From one of my topics in the map approval section, it is a clear wake up call that the approval team only listens to "pro mapmakers" and not people who actually have logic and conscience. they will also say stuff like "you listen or we will do something to you"

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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby xElijah » 3 November 2020, 00:51

phsc wrote:In the past, removing approved maps has lead to them being played as custom maps, the best example that came to my mind is xfrostbytex-matrixsniper, removing stryde-sniper is an issue because people will not be playing ranked, they will be playing custom, yes, more people will see other maps, but there will in general be less people playing ranked, but even then, it does not mean more people will be playing other maps! because sniper is a genre and a ton of sniper maps are similar, stryde-sniper is very similar to stryde-sniper2 and almost always those who like stryde-sniper like stryde-sniper2, not to mention that people might make new maps that might be similar to stryde-sniper for approval because it is an extremely popular map, so either the creator could get a ton of LDR from it or just be able to play a similar map in ranked, the issue would not be solved, you will ask "OOO WE CANT KNOW FOR SUREE" while we also cannot know for sure about anything you are saying, it is all about speculation, also this is going nowhere, stryde-sniper is not getting removed, and it is not a problem, I really see how you like saiyng "ooo its your subjective opinion" (fun fact, since the view of reality is subjective, and read Kant for that, your view that my opinion is subjective is also subjective, because someone can view my opinion as objective or whatever, I mean all opinions are subjective otherwise all of this makes no sense, that includes yours, this is not relevant to the discussion and overly deep into philosophy to the point it is completely irrelevant), anyways, the biggest issue with this risk is that, the only way of knowing is acting, and in the past similar actions did not lead to new maps being played more, and if we take some arena maps that were removed, similar ones started being played, this gets to a more general affirmation and kind of hard to give names because it all happened a long time ago, but I remember there was a map that was similar to raffine-urbanwar as in, why people playied it, the camping spot on the top right, there was a big camping spot on the map that gave players there a big advantage and it was extremely hard to counter, I think that map got unapproved and then people started playing raffine-urbanwar to get their rank positions and all, the examples I gave are general examples of how this tendency happens, people want what they want, of course if it is literally impossible to get what they want, they will have to roll with something else, this does not mean they will play different maps because of that, they can just leave, or they might seek for similar maps, got the point? this is a general tendency in psychology, this is a bit different with kids (check Openess in Big 5), since they generally are more open to new ideas, but are the ones who play stryde-sniper kids and would they be higher in openess to such a high degree? based on my experience with the general kind of people that play approved maps, I'd say no.

Ranked section is already dead/close to be dead. There is not much to lose, so we can still try removing Stryde's map or maps to see what happens. You cannot know for sure that it will kill ranked. Your xfrostbytex-matrixsniper example only shows that people sometimes switch to custom version of approved map, but it doesn't show that players leave ranked section forever because of their favourite map being disapproved. If someone re-creates similar to deleted maps they should simply not be approved. Stryde-sniper is a problem because its existence doesn't allow players to switch and try other maps. All opinions are subjective, I did not argue with that, however you can classify someone's statement as "rather objective" or "rather subjective" to make a more correct conclusion regarding it. Mentioning Kant wasn't necessary/relevant as I'm not using "it's subjective" argument for no solid reason. You did not properly name and explain examples for your "past similar actions did not lead to new maps being played more" statement so it's not a valid statement. After removal of certain approved map players can seek for similar map/leave ranked/start playing different maps. Lots of possible options of what would happen. Mentioning "Openess in Big 5" wasn't necessary/relevant as you don't know what personality do players have to know how they will act.

phsc wrote:Proper control is not inherently a good thing, also, burden of proof time! why is proper control good? if you are defending it, then explain it, anyways, the time playtesting was actually quite similar in MY experience, this gets to the biggest problem, corruption! way before the forums, as far as I know, getting maps approved was way terrible and all, and pretty much was all about knowing staff members or having extremely popular maps, what happens is that, as time went by, staff seems to be less corrupt and adhering more to the rules, this is one of them, it also depends on specific individuals, also, killing is agaisn't the rules, why do people do it and why does it work???? an ever better example, why is political corruption agaisn't the rules and why does it work? see the problem, no real way of solving a problem if the authorities that should be punishing wrongdoers are the wrongdoers, I actually am unsure if it was a formal rule but I remember I wanted to PM Doomwrath and Silent Aurora for map approval really back then and I remember getting the knowledge that I shouldn't because of rules, and well, PROGRESS! ok, so here is the thing, this is progress! progress is very relative as towards what, map quality is something very subjetive, which is a deal you seem to be ignoring quite a bit with the kind of assertions you make, but anyways, the game has progressed a lot, in a more objective way, it has more features, it has more weapons, it has more triggers, it has more options for making decorations, some actually would say that is bad but, there is more to work with to achieve what the map maker wants, and this is what truly made the map quality in general, according to my opinion and the approval criteria, get better, but did it really get better? so many options for colouring and visuals, and we still get extremely similar maps, you see the point? considering the increase in possibility, it is not all that amazing considering what you can do, a lot of maps are extremely similar, rule 4 again, also, if we talk about the quality of the map design, avre-underground has a ton of open line of sights and all of that to an extent goes agaisnt the code of conduct, kiriakos' map has less, also the first rate on kiriakos' map is from 2013, so the basic design is probably very old, and yeah, the map looks old, but mostly only visuals, is that real progress? I would not say completely, considering how the game has evolved, map makers did not progress as much, and this is why the general quality of ranked maps seems quite bad, also yes, grabbing a ledge with a gun is stupid and I have explained why, someone wanted to add such rule, and in general some people from even the approval team seem to think it is a dumb rule, that general kind of mentality for game design is extremely bad, and generally achieves failure, and now BALANCE, see, I already made the point, the game does not reward a high skill player well, because maps limit high skilled players, then we get pathetic communities such as PL, and an extremely boring game to watch at it's "high level", or even play, also I'd bet it was Tempus that made the edge grabbing rule and not Eric, I already made a ton of criticism to the map approval guidelines in a forum post I think around one year ago, but I don't remember where I posted it, and you cannot balance a map to give an edge to a skilled player over a not skilled player with a ton of the rules we have, is that balance? or is balance allowing someone who started playing after 1 minute to play as well as someone with thousands of hours into the game? is that good game design?

Proper control is good in this case because it helps truly good maps become approved and prevent bad maps from becoming it. The approval procedure became more complex as you gather critique, your map is being playtested multiple times, your map is being discussed by many people who have big experience in map making and they suggest useful changes. If people kill when it's not allowed they get punished, if authorities perform corrupt actions when it's not allowed they get punished, if people ask certain staff member to approve his map and get no punishment for then most likely it is allowed. Don't distort and push my words to absurd. I ask you this for second time. DoomWrath and Silent Aurora aren't the best people to be asked for map approval. Not sure about the rule you mentioned, but if it does exist, it doesn't mean we will get punished for sure (ban or map approval request reject) for breaking it. It's most likely will be treated as a recommendation. Because if it was a strict rule with punishment I would of been banned/my map was rejected multiple times, but I didn't get any sort of punishment and I doubt that I will get it now if I decide to skip the official map approval procedure once again. Map quality and progress are subjective/relative, but this fact doesn't cancel their existence and acceptance of its current state for people. We get "extremely similar maps" because we lack creative people who make "not similar maps". People like Mrnat444 or CreeperHunter55. We need more people like them and the problem will be solved. Rule #4, yes. Avre-underground has some relatively long lines of sight. If you don't like it you can post a disapproval request or ask approval team why wasn't this considered an issue when they were approving it. I personally see no big problem with it. Kirikos's map was just a random example of visual change/aesthetics state change from old maps to new maps that happened with help of approval team. Approved maps visual upgrade is progress. If you are talking about wall placement then its change would make even bigger progress. Map makers did progress much. Check one of Mrnat444's first maps and compare it to his latest map. "The general quality of ranked maps seems quite bad" because people break map approval requirement #4 - "Make sure your map is original and does not look like anything approved before (the way it is being played and design/atmosphere-wise)". Grabbing a ledge with a gun is a good rule as it helps newbies to play ranked matches. Game rewards high skill players, otherwise we wouldn't have Top 200. Maps don't limit high skill players, but they remove camp spots, spam spots and other unfair spots to make the game more fair for all players and not just newbies. Adding closer ledge to some tall wall won't stop pro player from selfboosting to the top of it but it will allow newbie to be able to climb it if he cannot selfboost. Never participated/watched PL so I cannot judge. You think or you know who made the rule? Also I don't understand why does it even matter. If Eric was against it, he would remove it. He didn't remove it - he is ok with it. If your map approval guidelines criticism is good then we should get some changes in the game. You can balance the map to give an edge to skilled player over a not skilled player (example).

phsc wrote:ALL MAP APPROVAL IS SUBJECITVE OPINION, see, there are "objective" criteria that are applied in extremely subjective ways and this is my biggest problem with map approval, it is extremely arbitrary and subjective, what exactly is not original? what exactly are the limits for things? what is too big of a line of fire? nobody explains that and it just gets extremely subjective and arbitrary, AND WHAT I AM SAYING IS OBJECTIVE WITHIN THAT, creeperhunter55 makes extremely arbitrary and subjective comments on map approval, it seems like you keep saying it is all subjective and all to make me invalid while literally all map criticism is subjective and arbitrary, INCLUDING THE RULES, why are the rules even right?
"micropixel backgrounds, shouldn't be approved as micropixel technology is not meant for PB2 official gameplay" there is no rule agaisn't this, at least I think, if it was added in the update to the code of conduct, it did not exist before at the time of coda-wave's approval request and I know that for sure, and now you are making rules! it seems like you are just baiting me, ignoring my points and acting like an autistic "ooo its subjective while i say more subjective stuff xd xd", and just because it is not intended (it actually is, you can run a function with the browser's console to use micropixels, and it even sends you a message talking about it! and literally, nothing changes other than it being smaller pixels, this is a very arbitrary rule, OOO IT IS NOT INTENDED SO WE DONT ALLOW IT, just because it is not originally intended for public use (and it is, because Eric made it way easier for people to work with micropixels), it does not mean it should not be used! it is simply a level editor feature, and some approved maps actually use micropixels! phsc-urbanwar does use them! slighty, and I think that creeperhunter55-citadel also uses them. It does not have unexpected bugs because it is the background, nothing can go wrong with it, otherwise things could go wrong with a 10 size decor or a 100 size one, there is nothing that can go wrong with it, it might get glitchy if you work with walls, it seems like you are just antagonizing me at this point, funny, also, lag is no measurable and this is another problem with the rules, what is laggy? creeperhunter55-citadel doesnt run properly on my mom's computer but stryde-sniper does, so remove creeperhunter55-citadel! also small backgrounds lag way less than literally a single entity, that includes weapons, it is literally the exact same as having a background object, and since coda-wave had manually made ones, there were not thousands of objects, it had the average decor count of a more detailed map, like phsc-sniper2, which has more than coda-wave had and nobody complains about lag or anything when talking about that map! I was talking about balem-danger, and well, the map cannot be discussed because the map forum post was locked! without balem getting a reply after making 4 updates to the map if I remember right, see the issue? but you will just keep antagonizing me in a biased way.

I'm not against arbitrary and subjective opinions of approval team as long as they ensure that today's approved maps quality is high. I trust their judgement. If your map was unjustly rejected or forced to be changed then discuss each case with the approval team member individually. If you have problem with some staff member you can report him. If there is no rule against using micropixels and approval team already approved such maps, then I guess you can use them too. I was wrong then. In this case coda-wave's original design could be rejected due to other reason or maybe it was rejected unfairly. In last case Coda can make an edit request stating that micropixels are allowed. Either way I did not look after the approval process of it and I cannot use your representation of those events as proof of anything. Don't call people autistic. Be respectful. Nobody is baiting you. It's just your another attempt to discredit your opponent by using false assumptions coming from your imagination. If you continue acting in the same way I will lose all my respect for you. It's up to the approval team to decide that the map is "rather laggy" or "rather not laggy" while taking decision on its approval. It seems like Balem locked his own topic because I don't see any post from approval team saying the request is rejected. If some staff member locked his topic unfairly, Balem could report it to superior staff to get the topic reviewed and reopened. Stop accusing me of being biased. It gets annoying.

phsc wrote:Corruption as Wikipedia defines it is "Corruption is a form of dishonesty or criminal offense undertaken by a person or organization entrusted with a position of authority", applies to PB2, and this is the ultimate example of how you are just antagonizing me and going agaisnt what I say for no reason with extremely weak arguments, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS A COUNTRY OR ANYTHING, what matters is that, it is a set of rules, you are just setting it apart for an extremely arbitrary reason, that is also subjective as well! Eric owns the game, staff members do not, Eric can do any change he wants, including to the terms of service, and you are just making an extremely weak point ignoring what I said, you want people to deliciously exquisite pizza sauce get staff to be corrupt for map approval, and you are literally just making corruption relative and saying stryde doesnt bite, yeah you can ask, but nothing will get out of it, it is not about care or anything, this point is just so pathetic and you did not refute my argument, you actually have none, your argument does not involve actual map approval criteria or anything, it is literal corruption, and that corruption can acheive anything in PB2, including changing map approval criteria or like... literally anything, ridiculous.

I see corruption as something you can get punished for if you get caught, as something that is considered absolutely bad and unacceptable in certain society to the point when the punishment for it is written in some specific code (e.g. criminal code). In PB2 if someone like Tempus approves an undoubtable good map without procedure, I don't think he will be kicked out from the team the day after even if Eric was aware of it. Mainly because there is no punishment for those actions if I remember right. And if there is no punishment for that I don't see a reason for you or anyone else to yell that I want everyone to be corrupt and do bad things. Seriosuly, stop throwing random accusations at me. It's getting funny. I did not say I want everybody to be corrupt. I only said that if you have ability to contact certain person to help you with your map you can do it, because it's not rulebreaking, it's not forbidden, it's just one of few possibilities to get your map approved. Also of course the map should match all the needed requirements to be approved, I was not talking about approving some random base map. Why do you take simple things so serious? It's a flash game. If you apply your logic to the whole internet and real life you would then realize that 99% of people are corrupt because they ask someone to help them with something without actually breaking any rules/laws. If you want to accuse me of being corrupt you better find some other more suitable word because yours just doesn't fit for a flash game. Also nobody was talking about changing the map approval criteria that way. It's just your "push it to absurd" theme.

phsc wrote:His critique makes no sense when compared to the rules or anything, I asked him to explain it properly and he did not, and it was a strict order, he does not approve the map if you do not do what he wants, this seems to have changed a little, you know nothing about the inner workings of map approval so this could be a valid doubt, but it is kind of a huge circlejerk where people take extremely subjective criteria such as movement not flowing well and do not approve a map because of that, while the rules do not talk about it, this seems to be changing, and another issue is how private it is, making it extremely hard for someone to even get to talk to them or test with them.

If it was a strict order and he did not listen to you, then report him for being a bad map approval staff member. Also as I said earlier I overall trust map approval team's judgement even if it's too subjective because they are good experienced map makers. They know how to make good maps so they can teach the rest.

phsc wrote:Strawman again! can you even reply to my actual points? if this keeps going it is just a waste of time, it actually is because you are just going agaisnt what I say with extremely weak points moving your goalposts and all, IT IS NOT A FALSE ASSUMPTION, because a lot of people have made posts about map approval and approval criteria and general rules and nothing changes, they get ignored, no discussion and no attention to it, but when MAX TEABAG, the legend makes a post, people's attention goes towards it, some posts by yizhe, Girl Power, and even me in the past, and often those got locked (this might happen if this "discussion" does not end by the way, if it doesnt it is because it is a Max Teabag topic that staff seems to like, because a ton of other discussion posts that got this deep into "argumentation" got locked in the past), it is working with what generally happens to predict what is likely to happen, hell, my critique to the map approval criteria got few replies and nothing changed.

How is it a strawman? Explain. If other people's topics did not reach the needed result it might mean that points stated there aren't valid or because people just don't want to spend time dealing with it as the problem isn't considered big/important at that moment. And stop accusing people of being biased when there might be other reasons for them to reply to this topic instead of other one.

phsc wrote:A cognitive bias does not make something wrong by the way, it just makes it easier to get to wrong results, it is not about the way I think, it is about the extremely basic gameplay mechanics that even the campaign teaches, also who the deliciously exquisite pizza sauce cares if they cannot learn? again it gets to the examples I made, make the game simpler because they might not think like that other retard, they might be even more retarded, and how is it even relevant? yeah we should make things for mentally handcapped people, so they can be good at the competitive side of the game, this is a joke from a game design point, you are assuming that I did not notice that, I did notice that and I think it is completely irrelevant, but you keep making the same weak points, and yes, the example with my mom is valid, it is one example? yes, but it is someone with literal no gaming experience, literally none, and again, bias is completely irrelevant! the point is, can someone who is unable to do such basic stuff or realize such basic patterns, get the priority? but the problem is how the rules are inconsistent, and there is also another problem with that rule, why do you need to get to all places of a map? what about having access to them, such as being able to shoot at them? the execution of the rule is also extremely bad, and well, if people might not realize that they can change weapons and all, tehy might not realize a laser might kill them! or that a pushing area exists at the side of map and keep walking there, so we must remove pushing fields, etc, comparing PB2 to another games is not another topic, it is completely relevant to map approval because the biggest issue with the game is how the game has very little players and ranked activity and that has a relation to map approval.
Just because it is not what Eric wants it to be (I am unsure if Eric actually made that rule, and as far as I know the staff approval team can change such rules and all and Eric allows them, so is this actually Eric's opinion???) but the bigger discussion is what it should be, not what it is, Eric is open minded and could change that, and the staff approval team seems to want to change the criteria completely (Stryde told me that in private messages), and that would include such rules, you literally do not understand ad absurdum or ad infinitum and do not understand that things generate results.
The general reason I think you are just going agaisnt me is how you are not changing your points even when they get ridiculous, the best example is the corruption one, you literally want players to be corrupt to get their maps approved, then why even discuss map approval is the criteria are going to be completely relevant if people can just abuse the power of authorities? why have rules if they have no value?

A cognitive bias makes it easier to get to the wrong result, right. And it made you come to the wrong result when you came to conclusion that if your mom never played games and grabbed the ledge in stryde-sniper first try it means everyone else can do it as well, when in fact it does not. Availability bias. Not everyone is your mom. Not everyone's mom is like your mom. There are around 8 billion different people in this world and each has his own unique characteristics. Some are old and experienced, some are young and silly. Some can grab the ledge, some cannot. You better rely on statistics or at least wider experience if you want to make some sort of research. "Who cares if they cannot learn?" - you say. Eric does and approval team does because they care about all players in the game. I do too because I like this game and its community. Not everyone finishes the campaign before joining multiplayer. Helping newbies by enforcing certain approval requirements doesn't help them at competitive side of the game, it only allows them to reach all spots on the map easy or hard way (depending on map maker's choice). If you want to add some special technology of reaching certain spot on the map that only experienced player would get, then just make sure there is extra route to it for people who don't. They may realize laser kills them if they walk into it. Walking into it doesn't require much skills or knowledge. In fact this is how I and I think everyone else realized that lasers kill when they first joined PB2 - by walking into them. Your "remove pushers" absurd again. Nobody asked for it, why do you like coming up with such ideas? I still don't get why you mention other games in context of PB2. If you want its ranked segment to function like in other games I don't think there is much can be done apart from changing map approval criteria. If approval team changes criteria - ok. I would not be a fan of such decision, but whatever. What's with ad absurdum and ad infinitum? I do in fact change some of my points. I agreed that if micropixel backgrounds are legal, there is nothing wrong if you use them in your approved map. I agreed that if we remove stryde-sniper players may switch to stryde-sniper2, then added that removing all his sniper maps may be a better decision. I do not want people to be corrupt as I said earlier.

phsc wrote:It does limit professionalism, you cannot have areas that only skilled players can access to make plays, this is more relevant when you take approval ranked matches, which are pretty much only played by the elite, and pretty dead nowdays, and of course, Plazma League, this is an issue that, makes so all maps end up being similar in skill cap, if you play some game, some things are harder and others are easier, some maps are more complicated and others are less, it is part of game deisng, players can choose what maps they play, if they think a map is unfair for their skill level, they can just not play it, the issue is that it limits the top of the playerbase, making room for the bottom, making things too noob friendly is extremely bad game design because it is frustrating for the good players... because there is just little to care about, little to improve, and we get a game that has a small competitive community that is also not that high skilled, which contributes to the game dying, mostly when it is a game that mostly has an active playerbase with some new kids coming in casually, but at some point that new income will stop or get extremely lower (death of flash and all) and if the elite does not exist, the game kind of dies, this is what kept games like DOTA 1 or Heroes of Newerth quite alive even after years after they were made and generally speaking better games were already around.

If by "professionalism" you mean people's ability to glitch through walls, reaching high ground camp spots, etc, then yes, it limits "professionals". I myself see professionalism as something more fair in terms of map layout. It's when player A who is professional can reach certain spot faster than player B who is new to the game. It's when player A knows the map so well that he can shoot in one direction and get a kill even when he doesn't see an enemy himself, while player B only learns the map and cannot do that move yet. This determines professionalism in games for me. It's a game without intended and unintended bugs and glitches that could be abused by old players. It's a game that gives a chance to learn and win to everyone from the first day of playing where of course if you are more experienced you get much more chances to win. I'm not sure if ranked is only played by "elite". There is unranked section with approved maps too. I see a lot of guests playing there. Ranked section is usually filled with relatively experienced players (not necessary "elite") who create and fill specific match and others just join it if they want to have fun with lots of people instead of playing some other map alone. New players (and not just them) in PB2 usually don't think if some map is too hard they shouldn't join it. It happenes simpler - player browses the matches titles and just joins one that he thinks is played by enough people so that he can have fun. Same happens with custom maps. In this atmosphere it's hard to change anything. It's a PB2's thing. You say making game newbie-friendly is bad for pro players. I don't think so. I play modern approved maps and see no difference between them and older maps. I was in Top 20 multiple times, a few times I reached top 3, so this is my personal opinion of a player who isn't newbie. We have small competitive community because we have a small community overall. Majority of people who still visit PB2 just play custom maps like paul308-base. It may seem more fun to them than getting spawnkilled every few seconds in stryde-sniper. I don't think that if ranked dies PB2 will die. Custom section and ranked section are two different dimensions played by different people, one does not kill the other one. I don't understand why do you keep comparing PB2 to games like DOTA. They are completely different.

phsc wrote:Well, then it gets to the same issue, we will get the same extremely generic approved maps by kubakuba instead of something innovative like that Silent Phoenix map I mentioned, a good example of a map maker I consider creative is Balem, another one is actually myself! hell, even Ditzy to an extent could fit that, I think his maps play very different from others and he dislikes the general atmosphere of map approval as far as I know, I talk to most of these daily so I know that for sure, but the two ultimate examples would be me and Balem, you can say that maybe I am not that creative but I do think I am, some maps like phsc-sniper2 are pretty different from most sniper maps, and phsc-urbanwar plays different from most arena maps, phsc-sniper is pretty generic (but it is way older than the other two), also creative or not is very relative and subjective, but Max Teabag actually went out to say he likes most of my maps and most of Ditzy's maps, and in general people seem to think such maps play pretty well and to an extent different from most maps, so I would say the general consensus for those who discuss on the forum and all is that I am pretty creative? Ditzy at least is for sure, and Balem is a quite new map maker but I think his maps play in a quite interesting way, that differs from other maps, and I think that is creative.

We get "same extremely generic approved maps" because approval team breaks 4th requirement of map approval requirements that is about uniqueness of the map. Are you mentioning yourself and Balem as creative map makers to answer my question "who left the game because he couldn't get an approved map"? Balem got himself an approved map. And you are still here and did not leave.

phsc wrote:This is outside of the discussion, the thing is, Max Teabag said that maps are generally very generic and boring, and do not differ a lot from the general ones, the rules contribute to that, being able to create custom maps or try to work out something nice out of the rules is possible, but it is less likely, and there is also less of a reason for you to try to make a very nice combat map approved instead of custom, think of that laggy Mrnat map you mentioned, it could have some features in approved gameplay (would never be approved, and in that case the map is laggy and at times even buggy), but something similar with some interesting mechanics would never be approved.

Maps seem "generally very generic and boring" because approval team breaks 4th requirement and because maybe Max didn't actually spend enough time to play certain maps so they did not start feeling "memorable" for him. I see rules as a filter that prevents low quality maps from getting an approval mark. The fact that it's hard to create a creative approved map with today's rules is true, but I don't think it's a bad thing. It only means that the best of the best will do it and we will not see low quality maps being approved like it was happening in the old days. But whatever, if approval team decides to make things easier for less skilled map makers - ok. Besides we have different definitions of quality, right? Ranked section is dead/close to dying anyway and I doubt that it will change anything. You want to put Mrnat444's map mechanics into approved map? Like what? Turning into a bat?

phsc wrote:That is not what I said, you have to justify what you say, even if it is a NOT modifier, why are they maybe leaving for other games?
It is not an assumption it is a fact, how many creative maps do you see around? the biggest issue is that, our definitions of creative seem to greatly differ, but it has been a really long time since I've seen a ranked map that plays in a different way, and for sure Mrnat's approved maps play very differently and are out of the norm, but instead he makes unranked maps, hell, even Hexagon/Lonewolf56 stopped making approved maps to instead focus on custom maps, another example could be someone like Cahir, who also stopped making approved maps to work on custom maps, even if that was a long time ago, and the list goes on, Max Teabag, Krutz (to an extent), even Stryde who kind of stopped making approved maps a while back when I was in BoZ, and now mostly reworks his older maps but now seems to be a bit more active, pretty much everyone! The only exception I can think of is Creeperhunter55 and to an extent Balem if he did not get mad at the approval criteria and get banned and get ignored as well.

I think you need to define "plays in a different way" if you want examples. Mrnat444's map took at least a month of development and I think it shows that he focused on custom maps not because he cannot come up with some creative approved map, but because he wanted to create something special for custom segment of multiplayer and add all features that are inside his head. Honestly I switched from creating approved maps to custom maps too. Not because it's hard for me to create something creative for ranked section, but because I think that maps whose only goal is to kill players are generally boring. In base maps for example you can do more things - kill, loot, raid base protected by god and his guards, talk in cafe, ride spaceships, etc. Custom maps are more fun by default so no wonder some people switch to them. I'm not aware of reasons why LoneWolf56 switched to custom maps. He made lonewolf56-hexwar that got over 8000 plays. Cahir is quite an old and not suitable example. He did make creative approved maps at his time and I have no idea why he stopped. Same goes to Max. No idea what's about Krutz. He continues to make maps that look like they are meant for approval. You even rated some of them.

phsc wrote:I already have said some I think had to be greatly changed or were ignored or removed, and it literally does limit them! you are not explaining why it does not limit them! there is literal limits! also I have argued with CH55 a lot, and well, stryde-sniper maybe shouldnt be approved! but I think a total of 4 removal requests were made and nothing ever happened to it, the issue with arguing is that very often you get ignored or literally no points are made, like you are making some points but Creeperhunter55 starts simply making fun of what oyu are saying and like, he said I deliciously exquisite pizza sauce farmed or something realy dumb I cannot remember, literally taking it ad hominem per se (I have called you a retard on this but that is not my point, so it is not ad hominem, more like a way of me expressing my despise for you because I think you are simply holding onto weak points, while some are not bad, and that is why I am still discussing with you!), Stryde generally ignores replies, but he seems to be getting better, Kiriakos is just a bit inactive and makes very few arguments and generally ignores what people say and seems to care more about who is saying what, general problems of the map approval team in my experience, the best of all seems to be Nyove, who is not the most active one.
The general issue is, you are not explaining why it does not stop people from making approved maps! the burden of proof is at you! here is the thing, if there are limits that greatly limit what can be done, such as gun mods, and complex triggerworks not being really allowed, maps like that Silent Phoenix one I mentioned or maybe some maps with interesting modded gun mechanics would never be approved, and those would be out of the general tendency for approved map making and be creative! but what can you even do currently that is creative? the issue is how we are defining creativity I think, show me some examples of creative maps made after the more intense approval criteria (I am unsure if I think Creeperhunter's maps are creative, I agree with Lonewolf's maps being tho), and explain what can be done taht is creative with the current limits! but even then, creativity is a lot about doing what is different to what is generally accepted at a time, and a map with very different gameplay, and that can be achieved in easier ways with triggers and gameplay modifications and all, are not allowed, making it extremely hard for creative maps to be made, which makes so people end up working on custom maps, you might mention balance here, is it fair to have custom guns and all? I think that of course some gun that fires extremely fast BNG projectiles is deliciously exquisite pizza sauce cancer, but I've had many ideas that involve modded guns for competitive play, and I don't think it would end being not balanced, maybe for the new players (where the rules target), and this is the biggest issue, the rules that limit map makers! you cannot make am ap that invovles like self obosting or rocket jumping or whatever at it's core, and that owuld play vastly different from most generic maps we have today! or make a map that has differnet gun mechanics, because there is a correlation betwen damage and rate of fire, and the general impact bullets have on the obdy and all, that could make for a ton of maps that play in extremely different ways! a lot of variables are limited, so generally speaking, approved map making is limited, and I think that the rules that limit them are bad, I will come back to this point later when you mention Cahir.

If you believe someone's judgement about map is unfair, argue with him. Upgrading the map with the help of more experienced map maker doesn't seem to be a limit. I think we should be grateful for their help. If arguing with some staff member doesn't work, go to superior staff (head mods, admins, Eric) and explain the situation. Approval removal requests didn't work probably because people were not ready for changes at that time. There are lots of possible reasons for a low skilled map maker to stop making approved maps, but only few possible reasons for high skilled one. And approval requirements is not one of them. If low skilled map makers don't want to make approved maps I don't care. I don't want to see low quality stuff in the game. I'm not sure why gunmods are not allowed. One of possible reasons that I can recall is that Eric doesn't want to confuse the new players. He doesn't want one gun to act differently in different maps. Other reason may be possible bugs that may occur after some game update or level editor update that may screw everything else up. What is complex triggerwork? Turning players into bats? You already mentioned the example of maps that I think are creative in your own sentence. What can be done creative? You want some ideas for maps? Ok. Take swamp location from Mrnat444's map and make it an approved map. That's one idea. If you want more I can think of it. Custom guns can be added if rules allow to. But it's up to Eric to decide. You can make maps that involves selfboosting and rocketjumping. Just make sure you add extra route for people who cannot do that.

phsc wrote:I do think that is true, but it is also one of the reasons to stay playing it, and it is mostly why I still play it, and hell, maybe the limits that approval bring could fit that? the motivation to overcome limits for personal gratification? but yeah, I agree with you to an extent, but if you are creative, as in you can think of multiple possibilities, you can minimize lag and make things work, this is quite the same as saying you can balance maps with the current criteria as you say, you can, but it is not easy!

It may be your "special" motivation type to play the game to overcome limits, but I doubt that's the way how majority thinks. You can minimize lag, but what if you want to make a big map? A city map or Mrnat444's latest map? He tried to keep many things at minimum to minimize possible lag, yet his map lags anyway because it's big and filled with a lot of features. Game is just weak for such maps to be played.

phsc wrote:The forum post I made, when I say wrong I say more from a game design point, and to an extent literally inconsistent at times, or plain arbitrary in how it all works, I actually found the forum post I made, http://plazmaburst2.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9&p=200673
The issue with this discussion (and any discussion) is that it all ends up being an opinion, you cannot apply logic to this game, or literally anything on life to an extent (Hume's guillotine) as an objective way to determine if things are right, but ok, the map approval criteria have been updated, but a lot of the rules have no real reasoning behind them as well.

I'll check it out.

phsc wrote:Proof means nothing in this case, because none has any epistemical value to it, I could just edit a screenshot of kubakuba saying he makes maps for LDR only, and then I'd "win" this, same for Avre, but I am honest and will not, beware this kind of need for proof, and there is literally no way to know why people do things for sure, but we can speculate and at times it is quite obvious why, a good example is kubakuba, he used to copy maps that were popular and tried to make a lot of publicity about them, trying to get rates and all, and did not really care about the quality of the maps very often, this did get better but I do think he cares mostly about LDR, Avre on the other hand I am unsure, we cannot know for sure, but it seems quite obvious, also a ton of newer map developers really care about LDR and a ton want their maps approved because of that, just read the PB2 discord (kubakuba used to fit this, being a newer player that is now a map maker that seems to seek LDR, I've never seen him say that in public tho)
Also, you were saying that "Creative people just leave the game." which is applying to all map makers (I mean, there are creative players that are not map makers, but it seems like you were refering to the creative map makers because that is the general topic, of course there are creative players and they might also leave the game, but it seems a bit irrelevant to this because no arguments about the actual game and creative people were made, only about map approval and map making).

Proof means everything in this case. You accuse people of not caring about anything or anyone but their own LDR which could be considered as insult or accusation. I would consider it that if people told me something similar about my maps. If you edit screenshots it will be fake evidence. You think Kubakuba cares only about LDR, but your thinking isn't a proof. Why are we talking about someone caring or not caring about LDR anyway? If approval team starts to follow requirement #4 it won't matter who makes maps. It's all about quality of the map, not about the person who made it and for what reason. When I said "Creative people just leave the game." I did not say all of them leave, but just some. So I did not speak for everyone.

phsc wrote:Well, considering modern map making, you could make an indicator of where the enemy player is in the alterantive dimension in the main one, so the map could work, also predicting where they will appear is possible, since you can think as if you were the player, and this is where skill comes in, predicting where someone invisible is is a thing that happens a lot in games, because there is always the most optimal play according to your own opinion, and generally there is a consensus, this creates a way higher skill cap where people ahve to constantly think like the other player, which would be really cool to see, because then we could have PogChamp plays and PB2 montages where people predict a player they have experience playing with, in extremely virtuous ways, and this is what I think PB2 needs, also an opinion is by definition subjective! casual reminder! and that includes the approval team and anyone! including Eric! no need to say it is subjective because I know and it is irrelevant! I could actually go really deep on how epistemology is extremely dumb and how I think epistemological nihilism is the right "ideology" but this is overly complicated and not related to the topic as well, and it could get the topic locked because of what happened in the past! anyways, I am not nostalgic about maps being better, it is just that, compared to maps of their time, Cahir's maps were extremely innovative, and that Silent Phoenix' map also was, and mostly gameplay wise! that is the thing, we do have the Cahirs of our generation, Mrnat is an amazing map maker, comparing him to Cahir is hard but it is the closest it gets I think, and he is one who mostly makes custom maps, just like Cahir ended up doing.

Other notes I want to mention, this discussion is going nowhere, I will still reply but if you mention some points I think are pretty much already refuted, such as the "haha staff member care about map so they go corrupt haha" unless you make a really good point.
Action towards what has been said in this discussion will probably happen, also, about the validity of the rules this game follows, the consumers should pressure the one who offers the products so that product is closer to what they want, and that generally happens! and that seems to be able to happen with Plazma Burst 2, just because Eric said a rule is a way, it does not mean it should be, and I think most of these rules were actually by Tempus (not that relevant tho).

TLDR: I think the game should have a higher skill cap because it is in general my general preference and in a game design point of view it seems to be the best option for PB2 to stay alive and adapt to more modern gaming industry tendencies (maybe not for 2.5 or 3)
I think that the approval team is bad (mostly Creeperhunter55) because they take extermely arbitrary points and extremely subjective views on the rules and at times ignore maps and the way they test the maps is also extremely weird and they are a circlejerk.
I also think that approval criteria are limiting map makers because they are literally limits that create a tendency for people to want to create custom maps instead of approved creative ones, and at times even making map makers not want to make approved maps at all, maybe even stopping with map making in general.

Your idea on how to improve Silent Phoenix's map may actually work as an approved map. Predicting where enemies can appear in original Silent Phenix's map would be quite difficult and it would be very difficult when there are many players online and chaos. In other games I played that had ghost-like players/creatures there always were some sounds they make, game hints, barely visible body, other ways to determine if someone invisible is close to you. In Silent Phoenix's map I don't see anything similar. You are pretty much just playing roulette. I was not going to say it's subjective. Don't try to predict what I'm going to say. So you do admit we have Cahirs of our generation? Earlier you said we don't. Rest of your post was answered above.

I would also like to make a few notes about your way of talking. You insult your opponent a lot, you distort his words and push them to absurd to make them sound ridiculous, you're accusing your opponent of being biased over and over again. You try to predict what your opponent will say and you try to insult and refute his possible statement in advance. I have gathered some of your expressions so you would be able to look at how you sound:
phsc wrote:10 years old retard, OOO WE CANT KNOW FOR SUREE, acting like an autistic "ooo its subjective while i say more subjective stuff xd xd", extremely weak points, you want people to deliciously exquisite pizza sauce get staff to be corrupt for map approval, this point is just so pathetic, ridiculous, waste of time, we must remove pushing fields, haha staff member care about map so they go corrupt haha, antagonizing me in a biased way, you are just baiting me, I have called you a retard on this, a way of me expressing my despise for you

I would ask you to be more respectful to people if you want them to respect you back. Calling your opponent a "retard" won't help you win any argument and also it will not let you get along with people.
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xElijah
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby phsc » 3 November 2020, 10:54

xElijah wrote:Ranked section is already dead/close to be dead. There is not much to lose, so we can still try removing Stryde's map or maps to see what happens. You cannot know for sure that it will kill ranked.

It being close to dead is actually very relevant, because stryde-sniper might be the map that is keeping it alive, and removing it might kill it for real, and this is a big and dangerous risk, if you want the map removed, go ahead and make the forum posts and all, a lot of people have tried it, maybe you can be the one to do it, I think it is extremely unlikely, mostly considering how the approval criteria will soon be changing and the map will be more fit for approval.

Your xfrostbytex-matrixsniper example only shows that people sometimes switch to custom version of approved map, but it doesn't show that players leave ranked section forever because of their favourite map being disapproved. If someone re-creates similar to deleted maps they should simply not be approved.

If they are playing the not approved map, they are not playing the approved map, very simple, it was also not a map that could be used for farming and such, as stryde-sniper is quite hard to use for farming, there are many maps that do a better job these days, but the current system makes farming not that effective, by farming I mean grinding kills, for some reason farming is used only when it is like two players colaborating here and I think that is a weird way to use the term.

Stryde-sniper is a problem because its existence doesn't allow players to switch and try other maps.
All opinions are subjective, I did not argue with that, however you can classify someone's statement as "rather objective" or "rather subjective" to make a more correct conclusion regarding it. Mentioning Kant wasn't necessary/relevant as I'm not using "it's subjective" argument for no solid reason.

It literally allows people to play other maps, you can just go there and create the map, it allows people to play a map they like, it is also a map that has a decent skillcap, it allows you to imagine where players are and you get a ton from playing it a ton, that is one of the reasons it is popular, other than the fact it is very flashy and such, most popular approved maps are like that, it is a map that has it's merits and is not only popular because it is the most played map, of course that adds to it's popularity, and there are similar maps, and people would just switch to them as I have said, also, why do players just not check other maps and such? this makes me think they are very low on openess, because they are not open to other maps! while some are even very similar to stryde-sniper, forcing them would not solve the issue, because they would not be open, maybe those who play for rank 1 and such that play the map, but that is not the majority of players even in modern times, and as has happened in the past, they would just play the custom map version, which is actually already played and there are a ton of remakes and copies! the only way would be removing all maps similar to stryde-sniper, the issue is that, then people that like that style of map simply wouldn't play approved maps, it is a game that the vast majority of players play for fun, it is a game after all, and that would just hurt ranked and even unranked, you might say that I cannot know if people play for fun and such, and that is hard to know, but if they do not play for fun, then competitive play should be more active and such, right? and it is not, and it is also extremely easy to get on the top ranks, some friends of mine who are generally considered not good players, did get on decent places on the top 100, so that is why I think that.
Mentioning Kant was because you made it look like you had a different view on opinions and such, which could lead you in the direction I think is right for epistemology and such.

You did not properly name and explain examples for your "past similar actions did not lead to new maps being played more" statement so it's not a valid statement. After removal of certain approved map players can seek for similar map/leave ranked/start playing different maps. Lots of possible options of what would happen.

I literally explained it, and that kind of example happens everywhere, go back to my example talking about people wanting to kill others and banning firearms or meele weapons, people want what they want, they might adapt what they want but they also might adapt how they get what they want, this is of course not really possible to measure, but they will not completely change what they like, and again, they would just play similar sniper maps.

Mentioning "Openess in Big 5" wasn't necessary/relevant as you don't know what personality do players have to know how they will act.

You actually can know! not in a formal way, you cannot really go out and get the statistics, and if you did try to do that a ton of players would just say they do not want to take tests and such, but you can compare the players you meet and how they act and how they behave to get an idea, I explained a bit on this, everything is speculation but I really think it would all fail.


Proper control is good in this case because it helps truly good maps become approved and prevent bad maps from becoming it. The approval procedure became more complex as you gather critique, your map is being playtested multiple times, your map is being discussed by many people who have big experience in map making and they suggest useful changes.

This is a bit complicated but, uncentralization for this makes it even more effective, in a TLDR it is because of the different mentalities for different goals and different tastes and opinions, centralization really limits that, centralization vs uncentralization is an extremely complicated topic, but I think if you are into reading you could check some of the works from Friedrich Hayek to understand some of the reasons I think that centralization is bad in basically every situation.

If people kill when it's not allowed they get punished, if authorities perform corrupt actions when it's not allowed they get punished, if people ask certain staff member to approve his map and get no punishment for then most likely it is allowed.

Who punishes those that punish? who punishes the dictator? the issue gets to that, if the staff team, the absolute top of Plazma Burst, are the corrupt ones, things are really bad! and this also gets to other issues, Eric is kind of very distant and might not even realize things are going wrong and even then not think it is an issue because of misinterpretation and such, I believe that has happened in the past to some extent, these days you can but back then I am pretty sure it was a rule, I am unsure if it was written out or even formal, but at times, people can apply rules that are not formal! that kind of thing happens all the time with authority positions, just look at Wasted Time muting people for saying "horny" in PBC.

Don't distort and push my words to absurd. I ask you this for second time. DoomWrath and Silent Aurora aren't the best people to be asked for map approval.

I am not pushing them to an absurd, and I agree, but Silent Aurora did have approved maps! kinda funny right, and back then both of them could approve maps, hell, phsc-sniper did get reviewed by Doomwrath, not only him, but he was the first, also this was all back then, so things worked out a bit different and people such as Silent Aurora were more active in such actions, mostly considering that there was no approval team and a ton of staff members did not really deal with map approval.

Not sure about the rule you mentioned, but if it does exist, it doesn't mean we will get punished for sure (ban or map approval request reject) for breaking it. It's most likely will be treated as a recommendation. Because if it was a strict rule with punishment I would of been banned/my map was rejected multiple times, but I didn't get any sort of punishment and I doubt that I will get it now if I decide to skip the official map approval procedure once again.

I'm talking about the past mostly, back then, now the issue differs, this is irrelevant when it comes to corruption tho.

Map quality and progress are subjective/relative, but this fact doesn't cancel their existence and acceptance of its current state for people. We get "extremely similar maps" because we lack creative people who make "not similar maps". People like Mrnat444 or CreeperHunter55.

The issue I think is more about the people that end up making maps, not that we do not have map makers, Mrnat is the best example, he did make approved maps, but now he makes custom ones! I am unsure if I consider CH55 a creative map maker, he is a good map maker but creative is not what I mostly correlate with him.

We need more people like them and the problem will be solved. Rule #4, yes. Avre-underground has some relatively long lines of sight. If you don't like it you can post a disapproval request or ask approval team why wasn't this considered an issue when they were approving it. I personally see no big problem with it.

Well, the map did get approved! and I do think it goes agaisn't the approvalc riteria, one of the reasons I do not complain about that is because I am agaisnt the approval criteria! that was just one example, also even then, it is not a dichotomy, it is kind of a scale, a map might not really have an extremely long line of sight but have generally speaking long ones, and this is where things get a bit relative and even subjective when it comes to some criterias and why I often think that centralization is bad, because the approval team has their definitions of aspects, that might greatly differ from others, back then you could ask different people and in general it all rounds out, now you cannot, and they hold more power.

Kirikos's map was just a random example of visual change/aesthetics state change from old maps to new maps that happened with help of approval team. Approved maps visual upgrade is progress.

This is not about the quality of map makers! this is about the quality of map making tools and features! back then you were limited by backgrounds and default decorations, now you can make everything fancy and such! progress did objectively happen with updates, but compared to the difference betwen the first Max Teabag maps and the later Cahir maps, there was much more progress!

If you are talking about wall placement then its change would make even bigger progress. Map makers did progress much. Check one of Mrnat444's first maps and compare it to his latest map. "The general quality of ranked maps seems quite bad" because people break map approval requirement #4 - "Make sure your map is original and does not look like anything approved before (the way it is being played and design/atmosphere-wise)".

That is an individual map maker, I'm talking about map makers in general, compare reject/Stryde/Cahir to kubakuba/avre, individual map makers do generally progress, but you should take the average from a period of time, not only the average but the best, and see it compared to back then, this is kind of anachornism, and this is a very common mistake I see happening.

Grabbing a ledge with a gun is a good rule as it helps newbies to play ranked matches.

I do not think that, why have multiple weapons then, having only one helps newbies to play ranked matches, see the issue? ranked should be a place for the elite, for good players to shine, not for noobs to have a good time, that is what custom maps are for, and at times unranked, this will soon be changing, both ranked-unranked and the noob-helping rules.

Game rewards high skill players, otherwise we wouldn't have Top 200.

Fallacious! a top 200 is just the 200 best players, some players can be better than others, but the expression and how different the best are from the worst is a very relevant thing, let me take two games with different skill caps that show that, in League of Legends a good player destroys a bad player, in DOTA 2 a good player rapes a bad player, because DOTA makes it way easier for a good player to have an advantage over a bad player, of course that happens in all cases, because one of them is bad and the other is good, the thing is, this allows for a bigger line betwen good and bad, and I think that is very healthy, it allows for an extreme virtuous elite to be created, and you can then see plays that make you go PogChamp, this is a thing PB2 lacks, I asked some experienced players about that, "did you ever see a play that made you go PogChamp in PB2?", all said no, I think this is really bad game design and it greatly hurts competitive play, such as ranked, an aspect I think made the game more popular back then, mostly approved/unranked when compared to custom maps, or the past equivalents of such names, is that the average player was inferior, because I believe the average age of the PB2 player was lower, and of course their experience and the general experience and knowledge players had was inferior, so a player like Flashy or Legendary Hero would have a vast advantage over others, of course map had problems, but they were good! and now it seems like the difference betwen the best and the worst is not that big as well.

Maps don't limit high skill players, but they remove camp spots, spam spots and other unfair spots to make the game more fair for all players and not just newbies.

They do and I just explained that, camping is to an extent a skill but it should be easy to counter, and often it is not, a camping spot is not bad, it should just have counterplay, a good example is what I did with raffine-urbanwar's famous top right camping spot in my remake of the map, fair is kind of a weird word, is it fair if a good player can be decently easily beaten by a bad player? or is it fair if that happens? this is very subjective and this is what I think makes this discussion happen.

Adding closer ledge to some tall wall won't stop pro player from selfboosting to the top of it but it will allow newbie to be able to climb it if he cannot selfboost.

Yes, but in some specific map designs it might happen, or something that requires wall jumping and such, and here is the thing, if a noob player sees a good one getting up there like that, they might try to think how to do it! and that increases the general quality of the average player of the game, a good example are again MOBAs, you see a good player doing an item build, if you want to be good you might just try it out and wow, it might just be better than what you did! this is way more visible when games are kind of new and such (original DOTA) and mostly when players are very new, and I've seen that, and I've seen that happen in PB2! and I think that is a very healthy thing, the biggest reason I think the average player these days is decent compared to the best is not really because of the criteria, but mostly because most players are old, but getting those who never played PB2, and quite a decent amount of people I know (around 10), literally all tried to figure out how I did stuff, of course they are older than PB2s intended public, but when I was a kid I did figure it out and my friends, who also were kids, did figure it out, I've actually never met a player that is unable to self boost or wall jump (a friend of mine took literal hours to figure out how to do it tho), you might say curse of knowledge but I am aware that not all players are like me, but this gets to an issue that is, what if the player cannot switch weapons? limit maps to only one, all of that I said before, the line for what is easy is in my opinion too extreme at the moment, and it does limit map making, I've never seen a map that requires or allows waterboosting, because it is a very hard technique and it is extremely hard to execute right, a map maker can make so people can go to where that leads, but just adding counterplay (being able to shoot at such place) should be enough I think.

Never participated/watched PL so I cannot judge.

Just wondering, did you ever participate in any competitive PB2 activities? more formal ones, with generally speaking, good players, because it kind of shows that the skill-cap for the game can be pretty damn high but maps might end up being unfair to an extent.

You think or you know who made the rule? Also I don't understand why does it even matter. If Eric was against it, he would remove it.

I am unsure, but this gets to an issue, Eric often does not check that kind of rule himself, he actually often does not check things in general himself! and maybe even disagrees with how things work at times, this is a very awkward interaction, at times staff act in ways that I think Eric is agaisn't in my experience talking to him, but he is just so distant, I do try to let him know about all of that and I did see some action happen in the past, this kind of goes back to the corruption argument, Eric does not know everything and staff can at times not be very nice or act according to what he wants when he does not even know what is going on, another thing is that Eric might not remember that rule and now be agaisnt it, this might look overly specific but I remember that happening with Eric!

He didn't remove it - he is ok with it. If your map approval guidelines criticism is good then we should get some changes in the game. You can balance the map to give an edge to skilled player over a not skilled player (example).

That is fallacious! he might now know about it! and he might have changed his opinion and not remember, you assume that he knows it, and that he would remove it if he knew about it if he disagreed (this is kind of an awkward thing, he disagrees with the rule but trust the person behind them?), map approval guidelines criticism being good is not relevant to changes happening in the game! this also assumes that people get to read it, or that people bother reading it, Ramanujan was an absurdly good mathematician that was almost completely ignored! you assume that quality ALWAYS generates results, when it does not, it also gets to the issue that staff at times is just not open to criticism and does not care, this seems to be changing but back then, mostly realy back then, that seemed to be the case.
And yes, you can give an advantage to a good player, but it does limit such advantage, and even then, if an advantage of position is exclusive and it has counterplay, why do you actually need to be able to reach that position? a bad player being able to get to all places of a map seems kind of irrelevant, if another player will have an advantage getting there and counterplaying him, is that even fair? you kind of illude the bad player at thinking an innefective move is effective, and this is even worse since they are probably not the smartest and might not realize that while not having the mechanical knowledhe about the game.

I'm not against arbitrary and subjective opinions of approval team as long as they ensure that today's approved maps quality is high. I trust their judgement.

I think there is a big issue here, the approval team, and also the staff team, often do not agree on maps and topics! hell, at times they are very different in how they see things, I think you trust them too much, they can often be very biased, literally irrational, and literally ignore logic or discussions, anyways, you like examples so here is one, stryde-sniper, Creeperhunter55 wants it like removed from the game and wants it to burn in hell, Stryde is the creator and well, likes the map, there is this kind of inconsistency with the team that makes me really doubt it to an extent, I did see how they work and I also have issues with it, reporting or letting people know changed nothing! actually even some staff members agree with me! but nothing changes, nothing ever changes.
If your map was unjustly rejected or forced to be changed then discuss each case with the approval team member individually.

What if they do not want to discuss or are unable to? that literally has happened!
If you have problem with some staff member you can report him.

If there is no rule against using micropixels and approval team already approved such maps, then I guess you can use them too. I was wrong then. In this case coda-wave's original design could be rejected due to other reason or maybe it was rejected unfairly.
In last case Coda can make an edit request stating that micropixels are allowed. Either way I did not look after the approval process of it and I cannot use your representation of those events as proof of anything.

You can just check the poll, Coda did adapt his map because he wanted the map approved over the different looks, but it was a creative and innovative decoration technique.
Don't call people autistic. Be respectful. Nobody is baiting you.

Autism is not inherently negative, mentioning what is already understood/assumed in a conversation/dialogue/debate, such as opinions being subjective, is a thing I commonly see people that are autistic do, it is not an insult.
It's just your another attempt to discredit your opponent by using false assumptions coming from your imagination. If you continue acting in the same way I will lose all my respect for you.

It is not an insult, it is not an assumption, it is a trait, kind of taking a common example I see coming as practical application of what some of the criteria talks about (DSM-5).
It's up to the approval team to decide that the map is "rather laggy" or "rather not laggy" while taking decision on its approval.
It seems like Balem locked his own topic because I don't see any post from approval team saying the request is rejected.

[quoteHe did not, staff members can lock maps without commenting, it is just agaisnt procedure, but then there are no rules for procedure and in my experience some staff members seem to do that more, it has happened in the past.
If some staff member locked his topic unfairly, Balem could report it to superior staff to get the topic reviewed and reopened. Stop accusing me of being biased. It gets annoying.

He did report it, it was likely Stryde, nothing happened out of it, there is also an issue with Balem being banned for farming, but that should not make his map invalid for approval, mostly considering there was no reply! also Balem seems to have some conflict with some staff members, kind of an awkward situation.

I see corruption as something you can get punished for if you get caught, as something that is considered absolutely bad and unacceptable in certain society to the point when the punishment for it is written in some specific code (e.g. criminal code).

I do not think punishment is necessary,, if we are working with different definitions there is no real way to have a discussion unless someone changes their definition, but your definition of corruption is irrelevant to what I am talking about, I am refering to the concept I just explained, use it, this is a very common issue, in economics Keynesians define inflation in a way and then Chicago schoolers define it in another and they keep arguing with different definitions, it is pathetic and innefective and you can just use the concept behind the definition, a word refers to a concept, if you did not really understand this, read some of Wittgenteins' works on language.
In PB2 if someone like Tempus approves an undoubtable good map without procedure, I don't think he will be kicked out from the team the day after even if Eric was aware of it.

But is that really good? if the maps fits the criteria then hes just speeding the process, but undoubtable good is kind of impossible, people always find flaws in things, not to mention that an issue might appear later, this is why I think discussion is good, it would still be corruption, him not being punished is not relevant to it being corruption, and the same could happen with a map a ton of people consider bad, in the case of Tempus nothing would happen because he holds too much power, if someone like Ditzy did that, he probably could even lose his staff position, power is the issue.
Mainly because there is no punishment for those actions if I remember right. And if there is no punishment for that I don't see a reason for you or anyone else to yell that I want everyone to be corrupt and do bad things.

There is no formal rule, but here is the thing, a very common act is that, there are a ton of not written out rules for PB2 and staff oftens do not write them out, this is actually getting more and more common, and when issues rise they write it out, from paulstin's ban to map approval criteria rework, this makes it very hard to work with rules in an objective way and this is my biggest criticism to everything that sets how PB2 works, and one of the reasons I do not really trust staff or the approval team.
Seriosuly, stop throwing random accusations at me. It's getting funny. I did not say I want everybody to be corrupt. I only said that if you have ability to contact certain person to help you with your map you can do it, because it's not rulebreaking, it's not forbidden, it's just one of few possibilities to get your map approved.

You realy did not understand what I said! it was a figure of language, YOU WANT EVERYBODY TO BE CORRUPT is making fun of how ridiculous what you are saying is, you are moving goalposts again to an extent, the way you wrote it all out, you do not want but you are saying that it should be a valid method of achieving what they want, the problem is, corruption is never a good thing! why have rules if they can be broken, you do say people should do it, so you are defending it, I did not call you corrupt, I do not see where you got that from, maybe I miswrote or misexpressed something, but I am pretty sure you just misunderstood it, it is not a personal attack, this makes me think you actually fit autism! not in an offensive way, but the way you interpret things seems to differ from how the average person does, I am not literally saying that, you take it literally, got the issue?
Also of course the map should match all the needed requirements to be approved, I was not talking about approving some random base map.

Well, if corruption is used, then it is not required, see the issue? if it goes that far, if rules are being broken, then approval criteria... are rules and well, why should these not be broken? they actually are because you are skipping the procedures for map approval.
Why do you take simple things so serious? It's a flash game. If you apply your logic to the whole internet and real life you would then realize that 99% of people are corrupt because they ask someone to help them with something without actually breaking any rules/laws.

You are literally using a different definition from what oyu used before and taking mine to a ridiculous point, which is completely different from what I said, literally strawman, this part of the discussion seems to be over, also serious or not is irrelevant, I want a serious discussion, it being a flash game is completely irrelevant, you have no real points when it comes to this argument, unless you make something with actual value there is nothing for me to add to it.
If you want to accuse me of being corrupt you better find some other more suitable word because yours just doesn't fit for a flash game. Also nobody was talking about changing the map approval criteria that way. It's just your "push it to absurd" theme.

The way you define corrupt is different from the way people genereally define it, you are the issue, not me, words are just variables, use the concept.

If it was a strict order and he did not listen to you, then report him for being a bad map approval staff member. Also as I said earlier I overall trust map approval team's judgement even if it's too subjective because they are good experienced map makers. They know how to make good maps so they can teach the rest.

Again, nobody cares about staff not properly following rules or doing a good job, actually some staff do care but these do not hold much power, I already pretty much explained this.

How is it a strawman? Explain. If other people's topics did not reach the needed result it might mean that points stated there aren't valid or because people just don't want to spend time dealing with it as the problem isn't considered big/important at that moment. And stop accusing people of being biased when there might be other reasons for them to reply to this topic instead of other one.

I literally explained how it is, it is not a false assumption, I said that "Max Teabag talking about the issue makes it different", it did make it different, a ton of people make a ton of posts about issues and it all gets ignored, people have that ad hominem mentality in their head, it is a cognitive bias that is made very socially accepted, it is a natural human thing, I literally did not understand the rest of what you said here, I agree... but how is it relevant? it is all about things being seen or not, an issue for some generic guest is generally not seen as a big issue, an issue for the legendary Max Teabag often is, this is about visibility, people do not care about the content if they do not even bother clicking at the post? can you explain what you are saying better?

A cognitive bias makes it easier to get to the wrong result, right. And it made you come to the wrong result when you came to conclusion that if your mom never played games and grabbed the ledge in stryde-sniper first try it means everyone else can do it as well, when in fact it does not.

FALLACIOUS! my mom is one example, you do not know for sure if taking the average players allows that to happen, it is just an example, taking the literal worst, of course someone with brain damage will not be able to do that, it is completely irrelevant, the person probably wouldnt even be able to play the game, it is not the wrong result, it does not mean everybody can do it, but it does not mean that everybody cannot do it, you do not take it as a negative by default, you cannot know, negative as default only works in specific fields because of how knowledge works, this goes back to the epistemology arguments I made earlier, this is not science, where there is need for things to be falseable, or at least I am not working with such criteria because you cannot really experiment and all of that, other criterias of science do not apply here, so this is not a scientific discussion, I do not know any other epistemic frameworks that assume that a thing is a negative instead of a neutral.

Availability bias. Not everyone is your mom. Not everyone's mom is like your mom. There are around 8 billion different people in this world and each has his own unique characteristics.

May I mention that it was an additional argument, I actually think that the criteria are pathetic, who cares if a player can grab the ledge, they can still shoot at the top of it, throw a grenade, there is no inherent advantage, hell it is even an open position, I think the rule is dumb and it actually basically never applies, yeah a 7 year old that is very dumb might not be able to go up there, why is that even an issue? that person is going to be terrible at the game anyway, and the good player will still have an advantage in that case.

Some are old and experienced, some are young and silly. Some can grab the ledge, some cannot. You better rely on statistics or at least wider experience if you want to make some sort of research.

You keep talking about that, I did understand that, for deliciously exquisite pizza sauce sake, getting statistics for that is extremely complicated because it is impossible, I did ask some people I know, if they ahve ever seen a player unable to grab a ledge, and this actually made me think of a big issue, a thing that often makes players unable to do actions is lag, some people cannot run PB2, this makes self boosting or actually, jumping the way you are supposed to, break, or even jumping break (this is kind of bizarre but I did experiment, and around 3 FPS jumping seems pretty impossible), so does the rule include everyone? why only jumping while holding a gun? what if the person cannot jump? isn't the line too arbitrary? this is also a point I was talking about.
"Who cares if they cannot learn?" - you say. Eric does and approval team does because they care about all players in the game.

This rule is very likely about to change, as most of the approval criteria are, I got this information from the approval team, I do think Eric cares about those who are bad at the game, but why at that exact level? why holding a gun? Eric tries to be inclusive, and he is, but why should ranked matches, approved matches, be like that? the place for skill expression, the more serious gameplay, this is actually weird because it is unranked, but it counts kills and deaths in your account, this kind of inconsistency seems to be what the new approval criteria changes might change in other aspects of the game, I will ask Eric what he thinks about this rule, if he replies (might take a while) I will let you know, but a ton of staff members I know think that rule is dumb, and the vast majority of players as well.
I do too because I like this game and its community. Not everyone finishes the campaign before joining multiplayer. Helping newbies by enforcing certain approval requirements doesn't help them at competitive side of the game, it only allows them to reach all spots on the map easy or hard way (depending on map maker's choice).

Why should ranked have to follow such rules? this gets to another issue, approved maps apply to ranked and unranked, unranked actually is ranked, because it objectively ranks you for criteria, kills and deaths and such, kind of weird, also, why should reaching all places of a map even be relevant?
If you want to add some special technology of reaching certain spot on the map that only experienced player would get, then just make sure there is extra route to it for people who don't. They may realize laser kills them if they walk into it.

I completely disagree, you cannot make areas limited to only high skilled players, camping should not be the problem, also, counterplay is a different thing, you might be able to shoot at it for example, but only reach it with skill.
This also gets to other issues, lasers are not intuitive, same for gravitators, showing the game to people who are not used to them, some often think that lasers do not kill, and some often think that gravitators do nothing, actually the same dude who couldn't wall jump, who is a close friend of mine, was one to believe that, so these two decorations and what they do are not very intuitive and harm new players, is the game really good for newbies? it is the same kind of intuition, but that one actually requires knowledge from before, people generally know that lasers hurt, and gravitators do make some particles going up and such, but one could think they are just a background object or something, or that it might not make them go up, see the issue? I think it is rather arbitrary and not a thing people thinked about a lot, and I've seen it happen in my experience! also if anyone reading this is from cult of use know that the person that was unable to wall jump and such was Jonas, my friend who is in that server.
Walking into it doesn't require much skills or knowledge. In fact this is how I and I think everyone else realized that lasers kill when they first joined PB2 - by walking into them.

Already explained.
Your "remove pushers" absurd again. Nobody asked for it, why do you like coming up with such ideas?

It is an example of how arbitrary and kind of dumb it all is, also I am pretty sure nobody asked for that rule about jumping with weapons, and you and maybe Creeperhunter55 might be the only people who think that rule is good that I've ever seen
I still don't get why you mention other games in context of PB2. If you want its ranked segment to function like in other games I don't think there is much can be done apart from changing map approval criteria. If approval team changes criteria - ok. I would not be a fan of such decision, but whatever.

I think PB2 should be compared to other games, just like maps should be compared to other maps, one of the issues is that, maybe the game is just... bad? not up to date and that is what is making it die? and I think that is kind of why, so some changes to ranked and competitive play might help, this is a lot about game design as I've said.
Approval criteria are probably going to change as I said, soon you might see the stuff, if it is all made in public posts, argue! that is a very healthy thing, but generally people seem to agree with the changes and there are a lot of arguments for all of it.
What's with ad absurdum and ad infinitum? I do in fact change some of my points. I agreed that if micropixel backgrounds are legal, there is nothing wrong if you use them in your approved map. I agreed that if we remove stryde-sniper players may switch to stryde-sniper2, then added that removing all his sniper maps may be a better decision. I do not want people to be corrupt as I said earlier.

Argumentation techniques, you kind of don't seem to be able to understand the way I make some of my points, it is not as literal as you might like things, this is common with some philosophers and such, some which I ofte like, so I kind of got that habit.
WELL, here is the thing buddy, you did not mention that until now, the micropixel argumentation kind of ended here and you made it look like you did not accept the point that people would change to stryde-sniper2, at least that is how I interpreted all of it, also I did not say you want people to be corrupt, you kind of say people should be, want != should, I already explained that part tho.

If by "professionalism" you mean people's ability to glitch through walls, reaching high ground camp spots, etc, then yes, it limits "professionals". I myself see professionalism as something more fair in terms of map layout.

Camping is actually a skill, there is fair and unfair camping, this is kind of a weird mentality people have, camping in fair spots is a skill and a play style, it just has to be fair, possible to counterplay, glitching is a more complicated topic, but a good example of a glitch that is a skill per se (glitching in PB2 is generally passing walls and such) is self boosting, which is generally considered a skill, professionalism does involve map layout, you cannot camp if there are no camp spots!

It's when player A who is professional can reach certain spot faster than player B who is new to the game. It's when player A knows the map so well that he can shoot in one direction and get a kill even when he doesn't see an enemy himself, while player B only learns the map and cannot do that move yet. This determines professionalism in games for me.

I agree, I did tests for that in most of my maps, mostly phsc-urbanwar, where I tried to solve unfair issues of the original, reworked the visuals and made so people can do extremely complicated tricks to get to places faster and have an advantage, and of course, made so both sides have the same advantage so it is not unfair for one of them, but self boosting is a thing that allows players to have an advantage, and camping is a lot about learning the map! you might know where people are, or might come from, so you stay at a position you can kill them in a more effective way, the issue is when you cannot really kill the camper, and often you can flank them, or just kill them by knowing where they are, counterplay!

It's a game without intended and unintended bugs and glitches that could be abused by old players. It's a game that gives a chance to learn and win to everyone from the first day of playing where of course if you are more experienced you get much more chances to win. I'm not sure if ranked is only played by "elite".

I think the issue comes when you compare very skilled players, with decently skilled ones, a medium and a good player, that is where I think the difference in PB2 is very small, and most ranked players, as in, consistent ones, are mostly the "elite" and people that play for top 100.
There is unranked section with approved maps too. I see a lot of guests playing there. Ranked section is usually filled with relatively experienced players (not necessary "elite") who create and fill specific match and others just join it if they want to have fun with lots of people instead of playing some other map alone.

The thing is, the general idea of ranked is that it is the only place you can get skill points/player points/whatever they are called these days, and sadly you cannot play approved maps as custom maps, unranked is mostly played for fun, yeah, and this is a thing that is being discussed in staff as far as I know, it is a place where beginners generally fall into, also the elite kind of directly have to play ranked, because they need to keep their positions and such, they end up being the main target.
New players (and not just them) in PB2 usually don't think if some map is too hard they shouldn't join it. It happenes simpler - player browses the matches titles and just joins one that he thinks is played by enough people so that he can have fun. Same happens with custom maps. In this atmosphere it's hard to change anything. It's a PB2's thing. You say making game newbie-friendly is bad for pro players.

That is true, but should the approved maps be limited to that? what if I want to make a map that is mostly made for some of the best players, that requires good skill to be played well, well, I cannot, and the good players play... ranked! in general, I mean some do not, but generally they do, it is kind of useless, it also makes learning some skills useless, a good example, waterboosting, I am even unsure if it is possible these days, but it is a hard skill, that was never rewarded.
I don't think so. I play modern approved maps and see no difference between them and older maps. I was in Top 20 multiple times, a few times I reached top 3, so this is my personal opinion of a player who isn't newbie.

I see a lot of difference in a ton of aspects, and GENERALLY, newer APPROVED maps are good, but not the older approved maps that are still approved, the issue comes with maps like shenko-sewers instead of the stryde-snipers, stryde-sniper is a map I think rewards skill, one of the best examples is eg-rw, it is a map where experience and knowing how to self boosts comes in handy, how many maps are like that these days?
We have small competitive community because we have a small community overall. Majority of people who still visit PB2 just play custom maps like paul308-base.

Yes, but this gets to an issue, old games generally have mostly a more experienced playerbase that is mostly competitive, the ultimate example could be MMOs that are now old or like Heroes of Newerth for the MOBA genre, people do play custom maps more, yeah, just like always.
It may seem more fun to them than getting spawnkilled every few seconds in stryde-sniper. I don't think that if ranked dies PB2 will die.

A part of it did, is it the same game without that aspect? what it kind of was intended to be, a shooter, not a game where you play a ton of weird custom map stuff.
Custom section and ranked section are two different dimensions played by different people, one does not kill the other one. I don't understand why do you keep comparing PB2 to games like DOTA. They are completely different.

It is more about game design than the games themselves, it is more about the general mentality behind the games than the game itself, I could compare to CS GO as well, but I know little about it, or other shooters.

We get "same extremely generic approved maps" because approval team breaks 4th requirement of map approval requirements that is about uniqueness of the map. Are you mentioning yourself and Balem as creative map makers to answer my question "who left the game because he couldn't get an approved map"? Balem got himself an approved map. And you are still here and did not leave.

Well, Balem did get banned and planned on leaving the game, he got his map approved but did not get the other ones approved and got extremely frustrated, I am still here, but am I making approved maps? I actually am, but did not intend to, if I did not get in more agreement with the approval team and actually talk to them, I would've just stopped with map making, I think that getting AN approved map is not the issue, getting A map approved is different, and should be the discussion, the number of maps do not really matter at least I think, it is even more frustating to get a map approved and then not get other ones, because generally speaking, you should be a better map maker and all, with more experience, of course the map can be bad, but what if you think it is not?

Maps seem "generally very generic and boring" because approval team breaks 4th requirement and because maybe Max didn't actually spend enough time to play certain maps so they did not start feeling "memorable" for him.

I agree with him and did play a ton of maps, and I agree, 4th requeriment is a big issue.
I see rules as a filter that prevents low quality maps from getting an approval mark. The fact that it's hard to create a creative approved map with today's rules is true, but I don't think it's a bad thing. It only means that the best of the best will do it and we will not see low quality maps being approved like it was happening in the old days.

Yes, I agree, the issue is that some rules are too limiting and not about quality, I've already explained all of this, getting a map approved is hard, and I do think that is good as well, the issue is that some good maps have a hard time being approved for dumb reasons, such as too many lamps!
But whatever, if approval team decides to make things easier for less skilled map makers - ok. Besides we have different definitions of quality, right? Ranked section is dead/close to dying anyway and I doubt that it will change anything. You want to put Mrnat444's map mechanics into approved map? Like what? Turning into a bat?

I actually had some very interesting ideas when it comes to this, turning into a bat would be really fun! probably would not work, but don't you think taht it could make a very fun map that could have good skill expression as well? a problem is that it probably would not be very intuitive and of course, laggy and buggy, and this is what I am trying to solve with some of my ideas! keep checking my posts if you are curious, maybe soon I might finish one of them.

I think you need to define "plays in a different way" if you want examples. Mrnat444's map took at least a month of development and I think it shows that he focused on custom maps not because he cannot come up with some creative approved map, but because he wanted to create something special for custom segment of multiplayer and add all features that are inside his head.

I actually talk to Mrnat! and he has said a single thing a ton of times, he thinks that creating arenas, like positioning walls and such, and making decorations and such, is extremely boring! and that is why he does not do that, I myself think that custom maps are way cooler, another example is Max Teabag, his maps made for approval are not that good these days, but he is a very good map maker, who ended up making a ton of amazing custom maps, and for his time, he was a very good map maker for approved maps, I mean they did not really exist at his time tho.

Honestly I switched from creating approved maps to custom maps too. Not because it's hard for me to create something creative for ranked section, but because I think that maps whose only goal is to kill players are generally boring.

That is what I am saying! that is the biggest issue, there are limitations, you cannot make a ton of interesting stuff for approval, because it is all limited, you cannot use triggers for more advanced stuff.
In base maps for example you can do more things - kill, loot, raid base protected by god and his guards, talk in cafe, ride spaceships, etc. Custom maps are more fun by default so no wonder some people switch to them. I'm not aware of reasons why LoneWolf56 switched to custom maps.

I would say I am a pretty close friend of Lonewolf56/Hexagon, at least when it comes to PB2, and well, he mostly has little time for PB2 map making, and I am not sure exactly why he did not make more approved maps other than that because he likes his classwar maps, I will actually ask him right now! but then I am going to reply to this and maybe add the reason later as an edit or in the next reply.
Cahir is quite an old and not suitable example. He did make creative approved maps at his time and I have no idea why he stopped. Same goes to Max.

I think Cahir is the best example, because he might be the best map maker ever, considering his time, a ton of people think that, same for Max Teabag, Max I am pretty sure did that because he thinks making custom maps is just more interesting, I do have a way of talking to him as well and could ask, but I am pretty sure that most of Max' maps for combat were made before approval was even a feature and the game was probably very limited, I asked him his favorite approved maps and he mentioned that, but if you want, I can ask him, but back to Cahir, a lot of people think that Cahir might just be the best map maker ever, I am pretty sure Stryde is one to say, and some think that Stryde might even be the best map maker (he made stryde-sniper after all), Cahir was just too good for his time in everything, and I think he is by far the best example of how someone can be in the future and still have maps from 2011 that were better than ones made many years after, and still are not bad today!
No idea what's about Krutz. He continues to make maps that look like they are meant for approval. You even rated some of them.

His most modern maps are actually for singleplayer, the other ones fit approval criteria but I think they are for BoZ events or... just for playing? I don't know and I am not in BoZ anymore and I do not have access to him or talk to him, but he did work on singleplayers maps lately and most of his combat ones are a bit older.

If you believe someone's judgement about map is unfair, argue with him.

I already replied to this, often they do not argue, often I get ignored, often they make some of the most fallacious or straight up bad logic points ever, and some times a mix of all of these.
Upgrading the map with the help of more experienced map maker doesn't seem to be a limit. I think we should be grateful for their help.

This is not what I said! yes it is a good thing and I think the fact taht the map approval team is a circlejerk is very bad, the criteria are the problem, some of the criteria, not the process itself, but the centralization kind of is!
If arguing with some staff member doesn't work, go to superior staff (head mods, admins, Eric) and explain the situation.

Let's see, head mods do not deal with approval, actually head mods are literally mods with more experience, admins, Kiriakos often takes the side of the staff team member, Kiriakos seems to just be too passive in general, Doom does not deal with map approval, Tempus is quite inactive, but yeah, I could talk to him, in the past he seemed to at times not really consider discussions and arguments and instead take on the views of some staff members or experienced players, so probably it all would fail, Eric is just too distant and probably would not act if not extreme, and well, I did talk to higher staff about some issues in the past and well, basically nothing happened!
Approval removal requests didn't work probably because people were not ready for changes at that time. There are lots of possible reasons for a low skilled map maker to stop making approved maps, but only few possible reasons for high skilled one. And approval requirements is not one of them. If low skilled map makers don't want to make approved maps I don't care. I don't want to see low quality stuff in the game. I'm not sure why gunmods are not allowed.

About gunmods, this is a very interesting topic, Doom once made a forum post with the approval criteria, and he said that slight guns mods were accepted, and I was all happy because it allows for more balance, mostly considering back then there were fewer weapons, so differnet DPS/RoF/bullet type/damage per bullet possibilities, but the criteria made by Eric did not say that was allowed, and when making a forum post with modded weapons for approval, you could not get a map approved with modified weapons, phsc-urbanwar had different visuals and was not approved because of that originally!
One of possible reasons that I can recall is that Eric doesn't want to confuse the new players. He doesn't want one gun to act differently in different maps.

Seems to be this, I think someone asked Eric about the issue, I do not remember exactly.
Other reason may be possible bugs that may occur after some game update or level editor update that may screw everything else up. What is complex triggerwork? Turning players into bats? You already mentioned the example of maps that I think are creative in your own sentence.

Not bugs, complex triggerwork is turning players into bats! yes, literally, that example is a bit bad, but a lot can be done! the possibilities are infinite, and I have some ideas I am trying to execute in a good way, I already talked about this.
What can be done creative? You want some ideas for maps? Ok. Take swamp location from Mrnat444's map and make it an approved map. That's one idea. If you want more I can think of it. Custom guns can be added if rules allow to. But it's up to Eric to decide. You can make maps that involves selfboosting and rocketjumping. Just make sure you add extra route for people who cannot do that.

You cannot make a map that has a place with exclusive access, and I think that counterplay is the issue, already explained, also the swamp idea is not bad, I actually had a map with that idea! it was based on errr_arrr-swampbase but made for combat in a good way, but shouldnt the gameplay be more innovative than the visuals? is not that what matters most? I think that is what matters most for approved maps, not visuals, the gameplay itself!

It may be your "special" motivation type to play the game to overcome limits, but I doubt that's the way how majority thinks.

I actually think that is why Max Teabag made some of his maps (I will ask!), it might be why Mrnat makes his (I will ask!), and again, it is a very common thing in a lot of fields, computer science! and I am pretty sure a ton of map makers end up being programmers or related, it is very similar after all.
You can minimize lag, but what if you want to make a big map? A city map or Mrnat444's latest map? He tried to keep many things at minimum to minimize possible lag, yet his map lags anyway because it's big and filled with a lot of features. Game is just weak for such maps to be played.

Just like game consoles were back then, and we still had the original Final Fantasy for such limited software, it is limiting, I agree, but what game is exactly like PB2, a 2D game and such, with easy access, with such freedom? I know none, none with such an amazing and open editor, Eric is just amazing for making this.

Proof means everything in this case. You accuse people of not caring about anything or anyone but their own LDR which could be considered as insult or accusation. I would consider it that if people told me something similar about my maps. If you edit screenshots it will be fake evidence. You think Kubakuba cares only about LDR, but your thinking isn't a proof. Why are we talking about someone caring or not caring about LDR anyway? If approval team starts to follow requirement #4 it won't matter who makes maps. It's all about quality of the map, not about the person who made it and for what reason. When I said "Creative people just leave the game." I did not say all of them leave, but just some. So I did not speak for everyone.

It would be fake proof, but I would "win" the argument, see the issue with proof here? you cannot have proof! it is impossible! it all can be faked and all in this case, and I agree, caring or not about LDR should not matter, the issue is that, if your goal is LDR, you will do the most effective map possible for approval, and that involves not spending a otn of time thinking about cool features and ideas, and instead repeating the same map, and well, that is what happens with such people!
Also, you did not say "most Creative people" or "some Creative people", you said "Creative people", by default, it is socially accepted that "Creative people" speaks for all, if I say "Sniper maps are boring" I am speaking for all sniper maps, if I say "Humans are rational" I am speaking for all humans, I am unsure if this is a way of trying to "win" this argument, or just an actual mistake.

Your idea on how to improve Silent Phoenix's map may actually work as an approved map. Predicting where enemies can appear in original Silent Phenix's map would be quite difficult and it would be very difficult when there are many players online and chaos. In other games I played that had ghost-like players/creatures there always were some sounds they make, game hints, barely visible body, other ways to determine if someone invisible is close to you. In Silent Phoenix's map I don't see anything similar.

I have many ideas like that, also in PB2, you can hear the sounds of invisible units, including the battle music, yet you cannot have invisible players in multiplayer, this could be because some people do not play with sound? kind of weird.
You are pretty much just playing roulette. I was not going to say it's subjective. Don't try to predict what I'm going to say.

If the prediction is right it is a more effective conversation, it is a risk I like to take, also generally speaking, you kept saying that, so it made me think that was likely.
So you do admit we have Cahirs of our generation? Earlier you said we don't. Rest of your post was answered above.

It was a figure of language, we have the equivalent of a Cahir, a good map maker, but not to the same level of Cahir, it was a way of speaking, nothing was ever close to Cahir, and these days you can pretty much do what others do, but back then, I think nobody really could, but getting knowledge about map making was WAAAAY harder.

I would also like to make a few notes about your way of talking. You insult your opponent a lot, you distort his words and push them to absurd to make them sound ridiculous, you're accusing your opponent of being biased over and over again. You try to predict what your opponent will say and you try to insult and refute his possible statement in advance. I have gathered some of your expressions so you would be able to look at how you sound:

I would ask you to be more respectful to people if you want them to respect you back. Calling your opponent a "retard" won't help you win any argument and also it will not let you get along with people.
[/quote]
Ok so, most of my arguing on this forum was agaisnt Jason Eden, a narcissistic OCPD retard, who literally ignored reason and also ignored me, this made me very angry at him, and I kind of got aggressive when talking to people in PB2, this is kind of a habit I developed, other than that, just a bunch of approved map players that just defend their point because it is benefitial to them, not because they truly believe it, so their argumetns were always pathetic and it made me very annoyed and angry! you do not seem to be like that, to an extent, at times you can kind of be but I think it is just your way, unironically, are you autistic? aspergers or anything, did you ever take a test? I am just curious, because almost always, when this kind of issue pops up in a discussion, the other person is somewhere in the spectrum, but maybe you are the exception and this belief of mine is wrong.
Pushing them to the ridiculous is actually a good thing! this is very common in philosophy and such (and I am used to authors that do that! it contributes to me doing that), it does kind of get close to strawmanning and such, but I always try not to, I just try to make it evident that I think your point is weak and why, also some of your behaviour reminds me of people who do want to bait me, or are just adapting weak arguments over and over again to annoy me, I have argued a lot in the internet, and most people do not see discussions like you do, so I kind of have to beat them in their own game, and I did think you were biased because I would have dropped most of your points way earlier, I actually used to think that stryde-sniper was a bad map and that it should be unapproved, but I changed my mind on that, so that specifically got me a bit mad, and also because the extreme vast majority of people have a bias agaisnt that map because it is the most played and most popular map ever, and some do have a bias for it, because they like the map or play it, classical.
Also, I do not think that respect is relevant to argumentation! I try to see it as a thing of facts and it makes me uncomfortable to have someone I dislike as the one I am discussing, because it will make me more angry at being wrong, so I have to come up with good ideas! it is about being effective, of course there is the chance I am wrong and am unable to make arguments, but I only do that with points I am more secure about, it also makes them mad, it does have some effectiveness problems, such as people thinking that it is ad hominem, when it is only insulting, because ad hominem is when the ARGUMENT ITSELF is about people, not when you make an argument then insult.
Actually, you are probably the best person I've ever had an argument with on this game and forum! (maybe Hikarikaze could be better? I am unsure) I do still disagree with a ton of things you say, but keep on replying, this is fun to me at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0qmkQGqpM8
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phsc
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby eru_ » 3 November 2020, 13:14

Essay writers be like...
I'd rather be badly criticized by an experienced person rather than being complimented by a braindead...
Do never hesitate to feedback, but don't be sarcastic please !
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Girl_Power » 4 November 2020, 02:04

eru_ wrote:Essay writers be like...


I was just about to say that.

On topic: I feel it's not worth making maps anymore. There are so many maps already made that it's impossible to think of something totally new.
— Officially Retired —

Moved onto other gaming platforms — Thanks for everything, guys.

Link to my profile: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?a=&s=7&ac=Girl_Power


Gone for good...
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Girl_Power
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Joined: 12 February 2017, 00:45
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Re: The current state of map making is tragic

Postby Yex » 4 November 2020, 04:59

Girl_Power wrote:
eru_ wrote:Essay writers be like...


I was just about to say that.

On topic: I feel it's not worth making maps anymore. There are so many maps already made that it's impossible to think of something totally new.


So true, I honestly don't think I can even originally make a map that's not a copy from someone if we talk about approved maps but other then that we already have so much saws, traps, and bases and such, that it's really becoming more of the same thing but with different styles and designs it's just eeeh, almost a copy essentially.
Now I really want to die. Just to get out of this embarrassment.
Don't talk to me.
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Yex
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