Why did you vote for Eric to design the campaign? (OP upd)

[curiosity]

Hello again. A quick question. Speaking of the poll. Half of you voted for Eric to be the only person to make the PB3 campaign. Why? Have you not seen the PB2 campaign design? It's awful (no offense Eric, only facts). Do you want PB3 campaign to look like that too?

Other question. I don't have access to discord. What did Eric decide? Is he still thinking about the poll or did he make the final decision already?

Eric, if you're reading, please think again. The community made a wrong choice. You know it and you know why. Let Cakespider, Darkstar or as the last resort Stryde to make the campaign for you. Together as a team. Gather all the best map developers out there and just direct them. There are plenty of great map developers in PB2. Just let them do it. It would save time for you and make your game look better due to it getting a better campaign. Here are my suggestions on how to make the PB3 campaign even better, please check, it's important:

https://plazmaburst2.com/forum/viewtopi ... 48&t=25796

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Update May 13th:

Yes, I know it's not 2011 anymore and Eric can make better maps now and PB3 has better tools. But even today his custom maps in PB2 are not that great in questions of design and plot and they say a lot on what to expect from PB3 campaign if he will be the only developer of it. Therefore I suggest to hand over the development of PB3 campaign to a team of professional map makers. It will warrant better quality of it plus it will save time for Eric. If we get a good campaign in PB3 it will make a better impression/picture of the game and help inviting new players to the game so it will have a bigger community.

[darkstar 1]

Most likely a combination of both Eric's- and some community made levels which would be optional.
I also believe that Eric could make better levels now than the ones he made in 2011, with newly gained knowledge about level design and new features since then.

[mingo1]

If the vote was 50/50, I could see a scenario where he lets players develop some levels of the campaign. Seems like Darkstar found what he has in mind!

Btw, I loved the PB2 campaign whenever I first played it... It'd be easier for me to see where you're coming from if you explained more about what you dislike about the campaign design. "It's awful" and "you know it" won't help Eric make a better campaign if he does decide to take it on himself. And yes, as Darkstar mentioned, Eric made the PB2 campaign over 10 years ago... not only are we likely to get a stronger story and level design with what he now knows and things like slopes, there's gonna be different enemies, gadgets, scenery, etc. There's a lot to look forward to w the campaign

Either way, the poll should indicate he's in the early stages of developing the campaign, one the final large components of PB3! Glad we're getting closer

[Gashadokuro]

no point in pb3 if the maps arent made by yogurt xd

[darkstar 1]

But on the bright side, the poll should indicate he's in the early stages of developing the campaign, one the final large components of PB3! Glad we're getting closer

He's mostly working on the level editor as for now, he does however already have the script if I recall correctly.
Has some interesting screenies and information on his patreon page.

[curiosity]

Darkstar. His maps are still poorly designed even today. The only thing changed is that he started to add more trigger work, but the design itself (backgrounds, walls, else) looks like it is straight from 2011. Check his profile and see for yourself.

That idea "my level my level my level skip" makes no sense because there will be a huge design gap between, lets say, levels designed by Cakespider and levels designed by Eric. It's like if you mix together maps made in 2011 and maps made in 2022 in one campaign. Would look ridiculous.

Mingo. Read what I responded to Darkstar.

You can combine cool gadgets with a 2011 looking like map and it won't make a great campaign. Also you need to be completely blind if you don't see what is wrong with PB2 campaign in todays standards. Compare it to modern maps to understand. How do you know that we get a stronger story and it won't be "pew pew all aliens dead good guys win" like in PB2?

Gashadokuru. Why does it matter who made it? It should look and play good that's all what is important.

Everybody. Check link in OP too. Would love to hear your opinion there as well.

By the way, I cannot know at what stage PB3 is because Eric doesn't want to tell, but I wouldn't be so optimistic about release date getting closer just because he asked community opinion about campaign. He is feeding the community with "cool updates" for almost 7 years and people get too excited about it thinking it will be released the next day, but it doesn't. Same thing every time. I may be wrong tho, but just fyi - 7 years of "cool news" and nothing changes. Something to think about.

[Eric Gurt]

PB:FttP levels were made in Flash IDE - no level editor, just adding wall objects while manually naming them since couldn't come out with better solution back then for some reason. Then adding background images for each wall, also manually. Scripting was flexible but extremely slow for some reason.

PB2 - initially receives Old Level Editor that helps somewhat but still doesn't let managing multiple objects, too dependent on indices when it comes to entities and trigger work. Basic level logic is possible though. Campaign levels were made using that and never remade by me (though there are great remakes by some of community members).

After some time I've made Advanced Level Editor for PB2 which is the only that is working now. PB2 levels were not made with it. Scripting is more advanced but still is doomed to overcomplications and is limited

I feel like not that many people really play my custom maps so I don't do more than feature demos there.

PB2.5/3 Level Editor has built-in Skin Editor, instance manager, real-time visual preview, extra geometry slicing tools, cooperative level editing, proper scripting. I kind of thinking of remaking PB:FttP and PB2 levels in PB2.5/3 engine since they would not be as easily playable to new players later.

For me, though it is also truly amazing how some level designers were able to create visually pretty maps in Old Level Editor back in the days. I partially believe people voted for option 1 since option 2 seemed that I would not have much of influence on these maps (poll option title is too short due to Twitter limitation). But then again, PB players that been staying outside of multiplayer and community may have different opinions on these kinds of stuff. And then, if you put yourself into their point of view and think of any other game instead of Plazma Burst series - you'll easily understand why it is like this. Top level developers might be not the ones that I personally see as the top ones I think of. In fact - in Discord each player was thinking about very different people.

I personally will think about all that once I will start making campaign levels. So far I'm working on new Level Editor.

[MastersTheCreator]

I voted on the other option. My reason is that with more map designers, comes more variety in the maps themselves. I like having different types of levels. You can blast through the tutorial in level 1, but in level 30 for example, it could be a completely different type of challenge. There can be some regular run n gun levels, some heavy platforming levels, hell.. maybe even a saw too!

My best assumption on why people voted for Eric is because his map designing skills are just fine, and I'm sure he's picked up some feedback over the years. Another assumption would be that if there were more map developers for the campaign, there could be potential leaks if things go too far. Again, these are just assumptions, but I can at least accept the fact that some people would like to see Eric create the maps.

[curiosity]

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Eric, hello again. Thanks for replying.

1. I know that PB1 and PB2 2011 level editor had limitations. I did not question your abilities back then. I questioned your todays abilities. I haven't seen a single visually pretty map made by you since 2011 and up to this day. So you think you can make a visually good and plot quality campaign (not cliche "kill all aliens pew pew good guys win end credits" like in PB2 campaign) yourself? Can you perhaps make a demonstration level if it's not difficult for you (some small well designed room at least)?

2. If I was you I wouldn't really ask the community opinion related to how PB3 campaign should look like. Most of them think that Stryde-sniper is best approved map and Paul308-base is best base map. They picked the worst maps out there and called them the best. It's funny that people who actually deserve the glory (Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre so on...) are considered to be worse map developers than Stryde or Paul. And you base your opinion on opinion of this tasteless majority. Don't do that otherwise PB3 campaign made by you will not differ too much from your previous works. You need to aim for the best level developers, not the worst, to get the inspiration if you're planning to build PB3 campaign solo. That's how art works in real life. If you are inspired by people who made great art your art has a chance to look great too, if you are inspired by worst art your art will most likely be bad too. And in PB2 case you need to be completely blind to think that anybody aside from, lets say, a small group of level developers (Cakespider, CreeperHunter, Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre, Ditzy, Namer720, other ones I dont remember) can be called great map makers.

3. Can you check the link in OP too? I wrote more recommendations how to make PB3 campaign better and it would be cool to hear your opinion there too.

[Gashadokuro]

Yes, it's not easy, but it's rewarding: campaign team will get its fame, community will get a great game experience, Eric will have his money. Everyone's happy.

lol

[Stryde]

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Eric, hello again. Thanks for replying.

1. I know that PB1 and PB2 2011 level editor had limitations. I did not question your abilities back then. I questioned your todays abilities. I haven't seen a single visually pretty map made by you since 2011 and up to this day. So you think you can make a visually good and plot quality campaign (not cliche "kill all aliens pew pew good guys win end credits" like in PB2 campaign) yourself? Can you perhaps make a demonstration level if it's not difficult for you (some small well designed room at least)?

2. If I was you I wouldn't really ask the community opinion related to how PB3 campaign should look like. Most of them think that Stryde-sniper is best approved map and Paul308-base is best base map. They picked the worst maps out there and called them the best. It's funny that people who actually deserve the glory (Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre so on...) are considered to be worse map developers than Stryde or Paul. And you base your opinion on opinion of this tasteless majority. Don't do that otherwise PB3 campaign made by you will not differ too much from your previous works. You need to aim for the best level developers, not the worst, to get the inspiration if you're planning to build PB3 campaign solo. That's how art works in real life. If you are inspired by people who made great art your art has a chance to look great too, if you are inspired by worst art your art will most likely be bad too. And in PB2 case you need to be completely blind to think that anybody aside from, lets say, a small group of level developers (Cakespider, CreeperHunter, Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre, Ditzy, Namer720, other ones I dont remember) can be called great map makers.

3. Can you check the link in OP too? I wrote more recommendations how to make PB3 campaign better and it would be cool to hear your opinion there too.

tldr; Eric makes bad maps, Eric cant be trusted to make a good map, your opinion is the only right one

few things:
- mapmaking is subjective, what I may like in a map may not be something player123 likes in a map
- you were being trolled in another topic where people were saying Stryde-sniper and paul308-base were their favorite maps, but again, completely subjective even if people were trolling (also best map =/= popularity), people are entitled to their own opinions
- this is Eric's game and series, it ultimately is up to him what he would want in PB3 campaign or multiplayer
- Creeperhunter isn't active, ditzy said he isn't active enough to help or warrant helping over others I believe, Namer720 quit, and Silk1 primarily makes decorations

It's a high chance this is some random alt account of a player who's trying to be overly critical without being pragmatic about the criticisms, but while slandering/disrespecting people and instigating drama, so consider this a warning to not have this topic turn up locked like your previous ones

[Eric Gurt]

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Eric, hello again. Thanks for replying.

1. I know that PB1 and PB2 2011 level editor had limitations. I did not question your abilities back then. I questioned your todays abilities. I haven't seen a single visually pretty map made by you since 2011 and up to this day. So you think you can make a visually good and plot quality campaign (not cliche "kill all aliens pew pew good guys win end credits" like in PB2 campaign) yourself? Can you perhaps make a demonstration level if it's not difficult for you (some small well designed room at least)?

2. If I was you I wouldn't really ask the community opinion related to how PB3 campaign should look like. Most of them think that Stryde-sniper is best approved map and Paul308-base is best base map. They picked the worst maps out there and called them the best. It's funny that people who actually deserve the glory (Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre so on...) are considered to be worse map developers than Stryde or Paul. And you base your opinion on opinion of this tasteless majority. Don't do that otherwise PB3 campaign made by you will not differ too much from your previous works. You need to aim for the best level developers, not the worst, to get the inspiration if you're planning to build PB3 campaign solo. That's how art works in real life. If you are inspired by people who made great art your art has a chance to look great too, if you are inspired by worst art your art will most likely be bad too. And in PB2 case you need to be completely blind to think that anybody aside from, lets say, a small group of level developers (Cakespider, CreeperHunter, Darkstar, Lonewolf, Silk, Avre, Ditzy, Namer720, other ones I dont remember) can be called great map makers.

3. Can you check the link in OP too? I wrote more recommendations how to make PB3 campaign better and it would be cool to hear your opinion there too.

All you say is making sense.

Ammo could be questionable in my opinion but it is still something to test both ways once campaign will be more or less complete (though, to be honest, I don't see random supply crates/pickups that give player what he needs or expected to need the most would make much sense as well).

[phsc]

There are a few core issues I see with allowing map makers other than Eric to make the campaign.

First of all, who? you said some names right, but does EVERYONE like them? are their styles going to work together? what about discussions and such? who gets to pick? Eric? if Eric is the one picking then I have a better idea.

Also what specific names? like out of your list, I think CreeperHunter is vastly overrated for something like a campaign, some of his approved maps are good but that is not all, most people in the list have no made a singleplayer campaign of some sort and that differs a lot from multiplayer maps, out of the names there the only one I know made a full singleplayer series is Cakespider, Silk has made many singleplayer maps but they have a different style to PB2s and I don't think the other mapmakers have a similar style as well.

Also I think most mapmakers have a style of their own, Eric's is simple but that works perfectly because it is the base, the campaign should not make people seek for an ideal in map making, it should be visually and mechanically not that complicated I believe, because otherwise it will set a standard to how things should be, also Eric probably can make some really good looking stuff if he really tried, but why would he? I think he spends most of his time in other things, but if you compare most 2011 maps to Eric's stuff, oh man, Eric's stuff was way ahead of their time, even up to like 2014, look at like Max Teabag's old maps, like labs, highrise, the original gunshop, hospital, all of these are very old and they look really, really bad, and I think that is the consensus, now Eric's stuff at the time? but it is not limited to him, everyone made bad things back then, and it is not as if Eric had a ton of map making experience either, he just properly understood the tools and applied them right considering the limits of the time, but in modern times he doesn't seem to care and that is fine, maybe mostly because he is working on PB2.5/3 or whatever.

There are also other issues, this is about what I am going to call the "map making meta", so, taste is subjective of course, but there are tendencies, back then everything was simple and shit, up until to like July 2013, when ALE was released, then up to like 2014 things were basically the same but with more details and such and then there was some sort of pixel-art meta I would say, making details with backgrounds and such, and it kept going and going and going up until decors were released, where that basically died off in favor of decors.
I don't like both the background art style and the decor style, I personally prefer things that are more clean, and I am pretty sure others also enjoy that, mostly for something as basic as the campaign, are you making some cool roleplaying map? yeah detail it around! now is it a map more focused on the gameplay? like an approved map and probably what the campaign should be like? then why focus on it, while most names you mentioned don't overflow with decors, most of their "great" maps were made before decors were really a thing anyway.

There is also a vibe issue, PB2 looks and feels rather similar to PB1, it is to be expected that 2.5/3/whatever should feel similar to PB2, a same style but with more quality, these map makers probably would also not follow that style.

There are very few maps I think actually feel like the base Plazma Burst experience, most of them being approved, a lot of it is the wall design which is often in sync with the background design, but singleplayer? very few, base51c by Max Teabag for its time was really amazing and if only it were not as hard as it is/was, it could even fit as a campaign level in my opinion with a few changes, other than that? I am unsure.



My vision of this is pretty simple, Eric makes the levels, the community/mapmakers from the community react and give ideas and feedback to how they want it to be, Eric takes what he considers valuable from these and then applies them, people react again or maybe not even that, and to the next map we go.
This fixed both the issue with DARKSTAR LEVEL - CAKESPIDER LEVEL - ERIC LEVEL, which would have clear differences, tho I believe all of these people can follow each others styles and maybe one does not have to make the map completely solo, why not take some great approved map makers like Stryde (turns out he made more than stryde-sniper, which is actually a great map), but when it comes to something like complex triggering, maybe get someone like Mrnat444, then background, art and such leave it to Ditzy and Hexagon/Lonewolf56.
It sort of already is like this considering the plot is being worked on by that specific team or whatever.

And I have another, final idea, do this or maybe just let Eric do his thing, but link some full player campaigns on the like singleplayer page or whatever, directly there, people can submit and if Eric feels liek they are good or if the community likes them or if the "team of based mapmakers that will circlejerk each other" likes them or something, they are added to it or something.

[curiosity]

MastersTheCreator. Variety is always good. People make assumptions that Eric can make a really cool looking campaign, but these are just assumtions, not facts. Does anyone actually have an example to prove that Eric can make good visual?

Stryde. You picked words out of context, distorted and brough them to the absurd. You should learn to read carefully and not overthink.

Eric doesn't make bad maps. Eric makes maps with poor visual and plot. On the other side triggerwork is on high level. Eric can be trusted to make the campaign, but a team of talented community members can do it better. My opinion is not the only right here, never said that.

In my opinion taste is subjective but not equal. There is a good taste and a bad taste. Hard to describe the difference objectively but the difference definitely exists. In everything. If you cannot see the difference between, lets say, paul308-base and namer720-bunker, then you will not understand. If you cannot see a difference between a song that has some deep helpful philosophical meaning in it and a song where some ugly wh*re is singing about her v*gina, then you will not understand.

I know people were joking in that topic but it doesn't change a fact that majority of this community actually finds your awful sniper map good.

It's Eric's game indeed. Don't try to act like you know something I don't already know. My role is to give advice to Eric, not ordering him what to do.

If there is nobody left then or course Eric should make the campaign solo. Obviously. But first we need to make sure.

Is there a rule that says I cannot be critical without being pragmatic? Will you ban me if I don't follow your completely made up rules? How do you objectively describe whenever someone is not open to criticism? Because I am open to it. Don't you see that? I even wasted my time replying to you. That's a sign I'm ready for discussion. Also how do you differ drama from a post with criticism? Do you so desperately want to ban me? Go ahead. It will only prove that I was right when I called you incompetent staff. Also there is discussion going on. Don't lock it just because you want to or because you feel like there is nothing left to discuss, ok?

Eric. Didn't expect you to actually agree with me. Good to know that you try to look at situation from both views.

Deficit of ammo/items is what makes the gameplay even more interesting in most games. You need to be careful with use of ammo and calculate every next step. That's what makes it fun. If you have infinite everything in the game it would feel boring. Perhaps the player could grab and use weapons from dead enemies and their ammo too so he has to always change guns he uses. Some guns can share same caliber so there is only need to grab some ammo from killed enemies. Something can be done about it. But honestly the idea of crates or infinite ammo feels bad. Just loot the enemies, should be enough. Sometimes you can just find a storage in some level and get more stuff from there, or buy some from a seller when you reach some safe civilian location.

Phsc. Let's try to be short, please. The team may decide the style and solve all the problems all together with Eric too through discussion. If guy A cannot do the thing then it will be done by guy B. I described how teamwork may work in my other topic in the link in OP. You can check it btw.

I don't want to argue over subjective/taste stuff with you. I'm not a fan of Eric's/Teabag's/Stryde's art - that's all I'm gonna say. I have different standards and requirements.

[wires memelord]

1. Preserves the game's original feel.
2. Eric has 10+ years of experience.
3. Impossible for someone that isn't Eric to leak code,art,ect.
4. During play testing campaign (if there is one) if there is something wrong with the campaign it could be fixed anyway.

5. yes

Also why do you think the community made the wrong choice? Just because the voting was close to a 50-50 split, doesn't mean it was wrong, the voting was in favor of Eric, no matter by how big or how small.

[Silk1]

you know, as much as I like the community-made maps in 2015-2022. I voted for Eric to make the campaign because as wires memelord says, it will has its own original feel.

besides, if pb3 campaign was eventually finished. i'm expecting there's gonna be crap ton of remake campaigns like with pb2 lol.

[broforce1]

community-made maps has low benefits such as making eric having more space to focus on something else but the cons....

each map maker creates that map on the way he likes, not the way that it should look like, most of em are PB2 map creators, they are not used yet to the new features of the PB3 game, maps in pb3 story needs to go well with the new features that are made by eric gurt, and making those map creators play the game wouldnt be enough, and eventually i wouldnt get the feeling of playing inside PB3 story maps since that its not originally made, like i know there are arts made by the community and ported to pb3 but art is something and maps are something else,

and i dont think that PB2 campaign maps are overall "awful", they are fine as PBfttp maps too, so i would feel more hyped if eric will be making the maps, and i think eric gurt has better ideas of designing maps as his programming skills with the game too, and additionally if some map creators have the game files, they may leak it to the internet or to their friends cuz (Why not)

[Chechenski]

Showrunner should run his own show.
I don't mind co-hosts.

[curiosity]

You will get the original feel, but at what cost? If PB3 campaign will look exactly like PB2 campaign but with 2.5D effect, would you be so happy about this "oRiGiNaL fEeL"? Or maybe it's just best to leave the campaign to people who actually can make maps in this game? To those who sharpened their skills for ages and have a true talent? Because these people can actually make a campaign that is enjoyable and pretty and would make you want to replay it again and again. Not to mention the WOW effect coming from people who will be new to Plazma Burst series. It's 2022, it's hard to impress people when there are so many other cool games around. Think about it.

I may be wrong though and Eric can make a visually and plot-wise good levels. If he made a demonstration map (maybe some footage from first PB3 campaign level or just something from PB2 level editor?) that has:

A) Good visual (proper background colors and shades, good use of decorations and effects).

B) Good wall placing (that actually forms some sort of a real life area, not just random retarded wall combinations like in most of PB2 maps).

C) Good plot decisions (not "round start > pew-pew > end").

Then I will admit that I was wrong and I will wish best of luck to Eric and the campaign he'll make.

[LazyRain]

I may be wrong though and Eric can make a visually and plot-wise good levels. If he made a demonstration map (maybe some footage from first PB3 campaign level or just something from PB2 level editor?) that has:

A) Good visual (proper background colors and shades, good use of decorations and effects).

B) Good wall placing (that actually forms some sort of a real life area, not just random retarded wall combinations like in most of PB2 maps).

C) Good plot decisions (not "round start > pew-pew > end").

Then I will admit that I was wrong and I will wish best of luck to Eric and the campaign he'll make.

Dude, chill, the game isn't released yet and Campaign isn't made. More than that, level editor needs polishing too. Also, if players in PB2 are able to make fantastic maps just with the current instruments, Eric definitely will do it better in the next game. Or will ask for some assistance. You need to check Eric's tweet and play some highly rated SP maps made after the latest big update.