Line of sight

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Line of sight

Postby yizhe » 14 August 2020, 00:43

Hello guys! I was wondering if the ‘line of sight issue’ for mp maps was really an issue. For those of you who dont know what line of sight is, kindly refer to viewtopic.php?f=135&t=24667

I would like to open up a friendly discussion on this matter, to seek, clarify and learn. As i am still quite lost about this issue, i would love to receive new insights to this. Hopefully, this topic can be used for future map developers to refer to for ‘line of sight’ issues. Cheers!
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Girl_Power » 14 August 2020, 01:55

The "line of sight" issue basically occurs to almost every single approved map made before the "line of sight" problem was introduced. I don't see it a huge problem but I guess it's implemented to avoid having to deal with spray fests. However this may cause maps to be more crowded and offer less free movement to players.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby nightmar » 14 August 2020, 02:00

This does not even exist in the map approval requirements. I do not see how it can be used as a reason to reject maps. Besides, what's wrong with long lines of sight anyway? I mean long range guns are supposed to be used at long ranges right?
Last edited by nightmar on 14 August 2020, 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Girl_Power » 14 August 2020, 02:16

nightmar wrote:This does not even exist in the map approval requirements. I do not see how it can be used as a reason to reject maps. Besides, what's worng with long lines of sight anyway? I mean long range guns are supposed to be used at long ranges right?


That is a good argument. If a map has long lines of sight then what's the point of having snipers in the map? The Yipeekiyay sniper rifle has a red laser that blinks when enemies are in it EVEN if you can't see them on your screen. If long lines of sights are a problem, then this feature on the Yipeekiyay would be pointless in approved maps.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby yizhe » 14 August 2020, 05:40

How does one determine ‘line of sight’? And how long of a firing range is line of sight? 10px away from player? 20px? What are the weapons that would be a factor to ‘line of sight’? And why?

These are some of questions that popped up in my head which i got no answer to.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Stryde » 14 August 2020, 12:49

nightmar wrote:This does not even exist in the map approval requirements. I do not see how it can be used as a reason to reject maps. Besides, what's worng with long lines of sight anyway? I mean long range guns are supposed to be used at long ranges right?

You are right, its not explicitly written in the approval requirements, but this is, which line of sight falls under this bullet:
- Make sure there are not areas of your map that are too large or too small (to avoid spraying or awkward player movement).

Areas that are too open or too large should have maps become unapproved or edited in a manner such that maps can be approved and suited for ranked. If you do not think line of sight is an issue, go make a map with every weapon and see how accurate their bulletspread is. Many new weapons have better accuracy then older weapons and because of this, line of sight is something that needs to be heavily considered for maps nowadays especially when you can get killed from enemies not on screen.

Before anyone comments back at this point, yes, there are quite a few maps that are in need of removal or edits to maintain approval.

Spoiler: Show More
Sidenote about hillmp: This topic clearly references your rejection requests on your map, yizhe.
There are many things that go into consideration for an approved map, but yizhe, the fact that you are stuck on one point makes this seem like you never took any of the other feedback from your playtests. In reality, the rejection post on your map should have included more details besides the LOS issue. Your map was also rejected for: LOS across map, missing wall textures, poorly overlapped wall textures, glowing edge effect in some areas on map (can be covered with lights), lack of ability to better improve map for approved gameplay from feedback.

If this topic diverges into "Why was yizhe-hillmp rejected the first time, or why was it declined again?", I will lock this topic. There is plenty of feedback directly in that topic as to why it is an issue with that map, so steer this conversation towards LOS in general. Do not quote my sidenote in any followup message as it is 1) not apart of this conversation towards LOS in general, 2) already answered further in other topics.

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Re: Line of sight

Postby phsc » 15 August 2020, 15:05

Stryde wrote:
- Make sure there are not areas of your map that are too large or too small (to avoid spraying or awkward player movement).

Areas that are too open or too large should have maps become unapproved or edited in a manner such that maps can be approved and suited for ranked. If you do not think line of sight is an issue, go make a map with every weapon and see how accurate their bulletspread is. Many new weapons have better accuracy then older weapons and because of this, line of sight is something that needs to be heavily considered for maps nowadays especially when you can get killed from enemies not on screen.

I have a big issue with this which is, accuracy isn't everything, projectile speed and the general map design are extremely important, as well as what exact weapons are being used, a map with sniper rifles can work with longer lines of sight since they have the lasers which detect enemy players, a map with rockets or that other slot 5 can work with longer lines of sight since they have slow projectiles, of course there is more to this, such as the small line of sight not being cramped or you being able to move to safer places, and of course a map with like shotguns cannot be very open since it will become living hell for spam and then we get sphinx-shotgun back then and all, but I don't think this should be always considered like a must rule like it seems to be, and remember to consider how cramped a map area is, but I don't think cramped is a good word, like x death-realwar isn't cramped, but really... where can you go? it is a gigantic line of sight made for people to spam, I think mobility is the key aspect here, and putting "awkward player movement" in the rule does not really explain the problem, I think the map approval criteria should be explained better since a ton of people have a ton of doubts and interpret it in different ways, and that is of course a problem inherent to rules, but at least try to make it better?
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Yex » 16 August 2020, 07:58

Hmmm...
I wonder how far can we allow the enemies to be off-screen though? Or is it not at all?
Also, why not use the trigger action that modifies bullet life as a way to solve this problem? Or is it forbidden in terms of solutions?
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Re: Line of sight

Postby yizhe » 17 August 2020, 10:47

Trigger action to modify bullet life is banned from approval. Im not sure what stryde meant by getting killed off screen, but if the rule for LOS forbids players to kill enemies off screen, with the limitations of modifying walls to curb LOS without the compromise of movement around the map, i would think that the LOS would render slot 4 (snipers in particular) obsolete. Rockets, slot 7 and slot 8 may also face problems in a map that requires obstructing walls in almost every area in the map. Just a thought that can be pondered upon.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby nightmar » 17 August 2020, 22:41

yizhe wrote:Trigger action to modify bullet life is banned from approval. Im not sure what stryde meant by getting killed off screen, but if the rule for LOS forbids players to kill enemies off screen, with the limitations of modifying walls to curb LOS without the compromise of movement around the map, i would think that the LOS would render slot 4 (snipers in particular) obsolete. Rockets, slot 7 and slot 8 may also face problems in a map that requires obstructing walls in almost every area in the map. Just a thought that can be pondered upon.


I agree with this. Also, If killing players off screen is supposed to be evaded then every long range gun (such as snipers) should be banned from custom maps since they are weapons made to kill enemies off screen.
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Galeforce » 25 August 2020, 16:48

time for hundreds of removal requests
to be honest this is nonsense and i think some recently approved maps already break the rule but are not talked about mostly due to external factors which i will not list unless im asked to
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Re: Line of sight

Postby nightmar » 25 August 2020, 22:10

This makes me wonder, shouldn't Stryde-Snipers be removed from approved since it breaks this rule? But then again can anyone show me an approved map that does not break that rule?
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Re: Line of sight

Postby Girl_Power » 26 August 2020, 02:19

nightmar wrote:This makes me wonder, shouldn't Stryde-Snipers be removed from approved since it breaks this rule?


No, because the creator of the map invented the "Line of Sight" problem. He wouldn't unapproved or change his own map because he deems 'stryde-sniper' as a "classic". In my opinion, I think that's a lazy excuse.
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