[REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Star Fox McCloud » 3 December 2017, 00:59

i think that strydes repins map needs to get approved since it is the better version of stryde snipers. unapproving stryde-sniper wont do any harm.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Krutz » 3 December 2017, 01:04

guide took 110 damage, then 33 damage; i dont really know how many times i should say this

the shot wasnt fatal, because 1) he lived 2) incapacitation can be reverse with a defib

any map similar to stryde-sniper will have similar spawnkilling in deathmatches—thats just how the game works

stryde-sniper's "domination" on servers isnt a reason to unapprove the map lol

a distance of 2 pixels from a lethal line of fire requires little movement to cross, and a distance of 27 pixels requires commitment (as in self-boosting into it)

rapidfire weapons dont allow movement, they force people to maintain positions of cover; this is different to weapons with low rates of fire because there are intervals that people can take advantage of

also who cares if your location is identified after you fire your alien shotgun? just spam it at any positions that can threaten you

stryde-sniper is in violation of some standards, and id like to see maps that arent

go ahead and unapprove the map, ill be waiting

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby bob67909 » 3 December 2017, 02:40

Krutz wrote:guide took 110 damage, then 33 damage; i dont really know how many times i should say this

the shot wasnt fatal, because 1) he lived 2) incapacitation can be reverse with a defib

If 33 damage occurs a fraction of a second after 110 because of unavoidable consequences of the shot, it's 143 damage. If I can show you hit markers still on a guy with 143 damage, he took 143 damage from the shot. To claim otherwise is ridiculous. If I can take 143 damage in the first few seconds of a game, I don't "feel safe", which is the only guideline given by the manual. It doesn't matter if I die immediately from the shot.

If I lag after taking that 143 damage and can't defib, or there's some guy waiting for me down below to hit me with a cross-map potshot, or if my hand slips on the damn keyboard trying to hit the 6 key, the shot is fatal.

Krutz wrote:any map similar to stryde-sniper will have similar spawnkilling in deathmatches—thats just how the game works

Then maybe people should pay more attention to whether the DM spawnkill rates in these types of maps are reasonable and try to do better?

Krutz wrote:stryde-sniper's "domination" on servers isnt a reason to unapprove the map lol

If a map has serious structural and gameplay problems, those are reasons to unapprove it. If that map is extraordinarily popular, it makes it even more pressing to pay attention to the reasons to unapprove it.

I should clarify a bit here. I think the map's extreme popularity has hurt this game, but I don't think that this alone is sufficient to argue that the map should be unapproved. All I want to say here is that we should apply approval standards especially scrupulously when a map is so popular and has such a tremendous impact, because the ways a map like stryde-sniper might depart from standards have much larger consequences on many more people than the ways a barely-played map might depart from them.
Krutz wrote:a distance of 2 pixels from a lethal line of fire requires little movement to cross, and a distance of 27 pixels requires commitment (as in self-boosting into it)

It's absurd to have a COOP situation where you can die within two seconds of the round beginning from a random guess on your opponent's part.

Krutz wrote:rapidfire weapons dont allow movement, they force people to maintain positions of cover; this is different to weapons with low rates of fire because there are intervals that people can take advantage of

also who cares if your location is identified after you fire your alien shotgun? just spam it at any positions that can threaten you

This is pretty irrelevant to the point at hand, which is just that you can suffer a random death from across the map with great speed and no warning with a sniper rifle if the map is designed with long firing lanes like stryde-sniper, which I think is pretty clearly a dealbreaker. A huge amount of playing stryde-sniper in DM is just playing the bullet lottery.

Krutz wrote:stryde-sniper is in violation of some standards, and id like to see maps that arent

Then go find some for yourself instead of just pretending like they don't exist.

Stryde wrote: A week goes by, Stryde-sniper, iJer-sniper, and Max teabag-sniperwars are held in server and being played consistently, with Stryde-sniper being hosted more than Max teabag-sniperwars, and that being hosted more than iJer-sniper. A map database glitch happens, and many maps get corrupted, including Stryde-sniper. I remade it the following day, and it was shortly approved (probably a week) after, as well as Max teabag-sniperwars, by PixelVoxel. PixelVoxel had a reputation of needing 25+ votes and community support (the map being hosted in servers over weeks) before approving maps. Stryde-sniper wasn't hastily approved, or created. Just because any map seems simplistic doesn't mean that map owner hasn't spent time working on that map for more than a day.

All this is also pretty irrelevant because of the special circumstances of the sniper rifle's introduction to PB2. Within that time frame, the entire community was still caught up in sniper fever, and it's not clear to me at all that in a couple of weeks any of that initial round of sniper maps would still have been popular. Most ordinary approved maps don't enjoy that kind of support pre-approval, simply because they aren't novel enough or don't have the immediate appeal required for popularity, but sniper maps all had the appeal and novelty built in because they featured a gun which introduced new gameplay mechanics. Compare, for instance, what happened with modded guns and m4a1 and glock maps--huge bursts of popularity for all the maps that have them at first, then a few maps stay popular, then most of the ones that only have the gimmick going for them lose their popularity pretty quick.

I was there for the sniper rifle's introduction into PB2, and as far as I can tell the only major difference between it and those other weapons is that sniper rifle maps were immediately approved. I don't know how much effort you put into the map, but the fact that it still includes a cross-map COOP spawnkill, regions inaccessible to people who don't use special jump techniques, and other cross-map firing lanes, suggest to me that the map is still half-baked. The design is also a pretty obvious riff on the bowl-shaped single-background arena style popularized by egrw1, just with sniper rifles, which goes to show that the map is lacking in both inspiration and technical effort and is mostly just an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of the weapon. This is true no matter how much time was ultimately spent on it.
Last edited by bob67909 on 3 December 2017, 06:05, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby jonb7 » 3 December 2017, 02:48

To be honest, I've been saying from the start that Stryde-Sniper should be unapproved. It can be fun with friends, but in competitive it's annoying, and one of the worst things to happen to ranked matches. Not to mention it blatantly violates some approval standards. It was the debut of snipers matches, but there are better maps for that now which actually suit ranked matches. This one can go to custom games.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Dariy » 3 December 2017, 04:37

I have to agree with jonb7. I remember I played a couple of rounds of it when it first became popular, but then I refused to for the simple reason of being annoying in any other mode than COOP... but even there it's not that great because of the way the top part is designed. Also I feel like that it's just a weaker version of egrw1.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 3 December 2017, 11:03

I forgot to check this thread yesterday, but this bob person cleared up pretty much everything.

Max Teabag wrote:Map approved -> Map got popular -> People devote time into the map -> People master the map -> New players get crushed.
People would not have devoted their efforts to mastering the map if it wasn't approved in the first place.
You're saying that we should punish players who devote time to mastering one particular map by unapproving if they get too good at it.
In essence, you argue that if a map gets too popular & players are too devoted, it should be unapproved.

Players will be discouraged from playing too good, map makers will get punished if their maps get too popular.

I think your argument is deeply flawed.


Your argument is actually flawed. Regardless if players devoted time to and "mastered" a map that doesn't meet one of the most crucial criterion of the map approval requirements, it should be unapproved. End of story.

Stryde wrote:Again, multiple people have posted in this thread, specifically Sparrow and tburn themselves, saying the COOP spawnkill is rare and hasn't even been observed in Plazma League, an event that's been around under different names now for about 7 months or so?

Ty Q wrote:And just because it hasn't been complained about before means it's not an apparent issue? I think the fact here is that no one even experimented with this problem. I've known about it for over half a year now after a training session in PCL. And now that I've brought this to light, people will start to use it more. Trust me.


Again, this shows you don't read my posts, yet attempt to provide argument against them.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby lostmydollar » 4 December 2017, 00:32

Dont waste your time posting feedbacks here. Eric didn't disapprove his egrw1 map so why would he disapprove this one?

Pb2 is dying. He wont get rid of the most played maps nor edit them because in some cases players stop playing the map that looks different from the original version they liked.

Just lock the topic bro
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby wreak » 4 December 2017, 01:48

lostmydollar wrote:Dont waste your time posting feedbacks here. Eric didn't disapprove his egrw1 map so why would he disapprove this one?

Pb2 is dying. He wont get rid of the most played maps nor edit them because in some cases players stop playing the map that looks different from the original version they liked.

Just lock the topic bro


I started to think of this as soon as the posts started piling up, as long as something is famous or rich. It's not easily pushed over, just because something will probably replace this map or the fact that this map is famous. Doesn't mean we shouldn't disapprove something that doesn't follow the rules.

but on to this topic, I personally don't hate on stryde. I don't even know him (besides his map) nor does he even know me. But I don't hate on his map nor does anyone in this topic does, this map is fun (although cramped and looks quickly made). It's not that we don't like his map, we just don't like how it's even approved, here are the lists of rules it breaks...


I could be wrong on this, but just having snipers isn't futuristic at all. We already have snipers nowadays that is arguably more advanced the one we play with let alone in the future.


Were still arguing on this but it's a super easy fix. Just make the walls thicker or something, if it's 0.01 percent chance of doing this the first 2 seconds, I still believe it needs to be fixed.


This REALLY depends on the skill of the sniper and pure sword user. But the fact that you can kill someone from offscreen doesn't support that you can survive with just sword, especially considering that all the snipers are at 2 spots.


You can't access the top part of the map without sword jumping or self boosting, that is probably the most important part of the map since elevation is so crucial in a gunfight.

Lastly, the design is not unique of its own, look at the similarities.



I am not going to ignore that you can easily tell some differences between the two. But if you were to have the same background and the same weapon, it wouldn't have a strikingly similar resemblance? I guarantee you that a lot of people would notice that it looks very noticeably similar to the two.

I think I am done with my complaining, I will try to respond if you have something to say about my statement or any flaws I have.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Max teabag » 4 December 2017, 15:03

Bob, I understand your argument more clear now, thanks for elaborating.
You're saying the more popular a map is, the smaller margin for errors should be.
I agree to the extent that popularity isn't a good reason to keep a map approved because a map might be "popular" for the wrong reasons, it might be popular because It's easy to get a lot of kills, fast. Making the only way to get fast kills is playing an unenjoyable map. However, this is not the case.

The approval requirements are there so players feel the map is fair, not so we can find loop-holes so people with or without personal disputes can get each other maps unapproved for the sake of unapproving. Virtually nobody has complained about the map having 0.1% chance of getting spawn-killed before this topic was made. Guys, get your act together.

I would understand unapproving the map if it was mandatory to play it, however, just don't play it if you don't like it.

My main point is that nobody is playing ranked matches anymore.

Most games hosted with Stryde-sniper is unnranked.
You will not see fewer matches of this map if it were unapproved.

The only reason you'd care to unapprove this map is that of personal opinion about the map/map-maker.
Not because it "ruined pb2."

To add upon this, with the combination of the vast amount of approved maps currently, and coming, with the fact that nobody plays ranked matches, the approval is right now just a status symbol.
It used to mean a lot when there were few approved maps and a lot of 'ranked matches'.

The vast amount of discussion for something useless reflects that nobody really cares to serve PB2 in the best way. We're currently arguing for the sake of the argument.

I request a topic lock.
Last edited by Max teabag on 4 December 2017, 15:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Slashdown » 4 December 2017, 15:22

With all due respect, when looking at past criticisms that Stryde and Krutz have levied against other maps to get them unapproved, this map has more egregious flaws that are being defended by these same two people. Using the precedent set by other map unapprovals, the litany of flaws and rule violations should merit at the very least edits by the creator to make it more viable for new players.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Slashdown » 4 December 2017, 15:32

Max teabag wrote:Bob, I understand your argument more clear now, thanks for elaborating.
You're saying the more popular a map is, the smaller margin for errors should be.
I agree to the extent that popularity isn't a good reason to keep a map approved because a map might be "popular" for the wrong reasons, it might be popular because It's easy to get a lot of kills, fast. Making the only way to get fast kills is playing an unenjoyable map. However, this is not the case.

The approval requirements are there so players feel the map is fair, not so we can find loop-holes so people with or without personal disputes can get each other maps unapproved for the sake of unapproving. Virtually nobody has complained about the map having 0.1% chance of getting spawn-killed before this topic was made. Guys, get your act together.

I would understand unapproving the map if it was mandatory to play it, however, just don't play it if you don't like it.

My main point is that nobody is playing ranked matches anymore.

Most games hosted with Stryde-sniper is unnranked.
You will not see fewer matches of this map if it were unapproved.

The only reason you'd care to unapprove this map is that of personal opinion about the map/map-maker.
Not because it "ruined pb2."

To add upon this, with the combination of the vast amount of approved maps currently, and coming, with the fact that nobody plays ranked matches, the approval is right now just a status symbol.
It used to mean a lot, when there was few approved maps and a lot of 'ranked matches'.

The vast amount of discussio for something useless reflects that nobody really cares to serve PB2 in the best way. We're currently arugeing for the sake of the arguement.

I request a topic lock.


It almost seems as if you/krutz are defending the mapmaker due to personal opinion. It goes both ways. There are many points brought that have merit that you wish to ignore due to "inactivity of ranked matches." I'd argue that since such a high skill floor map like stryde-sniper is the primary map used in ranked, it discourages new players from playing ranked. With all the ways this map favors people who can boost, how easy spawn killing and across map shots are in DM, a new player trying to play ranked will fell completely overwhelmed after not being able to reach the platforms where he is getting shot at from and be discouraged from playing ranked regardless.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Max teabag » 4 December 2017, 15:47

Slash, the reason ranked is not popular is not because of Stryde-sniper, but because of the ping-limit and the fact that PP is not a very enjoyable system.

My point is that we overestimate the importance of the approval status.
Right now It's just an emblem of a pat on the back saying "Good job, Johnny, you made a map that met our exact standards, has a green little checkmark!" I don't have any strong opinions against this, but when people write essays and perform linear algebra in attempts to defend that symbol, that means people are completely misguided.



And if it seems that I'm only saying this to defend my clan members, I'm not defending Krutz and Stryde particularly, I'm criticizing the overarching discussion. I'm not interested in the details.

And yes, Krutz and Stryde has used small details to unapprove other maps --- I do not think highly of their efforts to do so.

The efforts to reduce the number of approved maps is understandable in order to make the approval symbol mean something, however, there have been cases where Stryde and Krutz(?) have pointed out details just to unapprove a map for the sake of it. In that case, those actions should not be let uncriticized, I do not think highly of that behavior.

For the record, Krutz made the topic about EGRW to illustrate how flawed the approval requirements are.

Both sides are mistaken, and this entire discussion is not productive.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby cheesecheetos » 5 December 2017, 00:20

if this map gets unapproved than pb2 will die

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 5 December 2017, 14:02

Max teabag wrote:My point is that we overestimate the importance of the approval status.
Right now It's just an emblem of a pat on the back saying "Good job, Johnny, you made a map that met our exact standards, has a green little checkmark!" I don't have any strong opinions against this, but when people write essays and perform linear algebra in attempts to defend that symbol, that means people are completely misguided.


Only 1 person has been writing "essays" and Stryde and Krutz are the only two people bringing math down to the exact decimal place into the discussion. I have yet to do either on this thread and I'm the topic starter.


Max teabag wrote:And if it seems that I'm only saying this to defend my clan members, I'm not defending Krutz and Stryde particularly, I'm criticizing the overarching discussion. I'm not interested in the details.

Max teabag wrote:And yes, Krutz and Stryde has used small details to unapprove other maps --- I do not think highly of their efforts to do so.

Max teabag wrote:The efforts to reduce the number of approved maps is understandable in order to make the approval symbol mean something, however, there have been cases where Stryde and Krutz(?) have pointed out details just to unapprove a map for the sake of it. In that case, those actions should not be let uncriticized, I do not think highly of that behavior.


You can say you're intervening because of the drawn-out discussion but it seems only logical to defend the approval of the map when you've been friends with the map creator for 5+ years.

And I recall you saying something about the spawnkill having a "0.01% chance" of occurring? Look at the approved maps list. Seriously, take a look. You won't find 1 approved map on which you can fire from one spawn to the other without moving. Not one. Save stryde-sniper, which somehow got approved without considering that tiny detail.

And sadly, a lot of people are overlooking that because of the popularity the map has gained.


Max teabag wrote:For the record, Krutz made the topic about EGRW to illustrate how flawed the approval requirements are.


You failed to mention Stryde, who's supplied literally every reason supplied here on other map approval removal threads:

Map Navigation
Spawnkilling
Firing Lane

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Max teabag » 5 December 2017, 15:24

The point is not who wrote the longest essay, or whatever the chances are of spawn killing. You need to climb out of that paradigm of thinking.

The attention needs to be brought at the flawed approval requirements.

Stryde and Krutz abused the requirements in order to unapprove maps to lower the number of approved maps and therefore bring more meaning to the symbol.
This fired right back at them when you, rightly so, used the same cards against them to unapprove this map.

Ty Q, I understand, your map was unapproved for a whack reason, so you want justice and unapprove a very popular map for another whack reason, and this will affect a lot of people. I'm not saying Stryde-sniper should be held to lower standard because It's popular, what I'm saying is that we need to stop playing tit-for-tat.

We need to stop arguing all of this nonesense and change the approval requirement system so it cant' be abused like this anymore.
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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Slashdown » 5 December 2017, 21:43

Max teabag wrote:The point is not who wrote the longest essay, or whatever the chances are of spawn killing. You need to climb out of that paradigm of thinking.

The attention needs to be brought at the flawed approval requirements.

Stryde and Krutz abused the requirements in order to unapprove maps to lower the number of approved maps and therefore bring more meaning to the symbol.
This fired right back at them when you, rightly so, used the same cards against them to unapprove this map.

Ty Q, I understand, your map was unapproved for a whack reason, so you want justice and unapprove a very popular map for another whack reason, and this will affect a lot of people. I'm not saying Stryde-sniper should be held to lower standard because It's popular, what I'm saying is that we need to stop playing tit-for-tat.

We need to stop arguing all of this nonesense and change the approval requirement system so it cant' be abused like this anymore.


When a precedent is set, there are only two ways in which one can act without being a hypocrite.

1) All of that thing follow that precedent.
2) The error is seen with that precedent, and all previous situations where that precedent is used are reversed.

For the sake of fair moderation, either all the maps that have been unapproved for small flaws be reapproved, or this map needs to be unapproved. I understand what you mean about being petty, however one must be COMPLETELY consistent with the standards maps are held to. You cannot have different standards for different maps.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Krutz » 5 December 2017, 21:54

if anything were standardized here, it wouldnt be that stryde-sniper would get unapproved and others reapproved lol... i can literally find so many maps that violate the lemars that itll fill this forum to pages, which is the point i wanted to get across in the beginning

the lemars shouldnt even be looked at, theyre so bad

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Stryde » 5 December 2017, 22:56

Slashdown wrote:When a precedent is set, there are only two ways in which one can act without being a hypocrite.

1) All of that thing follow that precedent.
2) The error is seen with that precedent, and all previous situations where that precedent is used are reversed

There is a precedent, however, its drastically different for popular maps, like EGRW.
It was (albeit jokingly) requested for unapproval, and it is still approved. If anyone thinks Stryde-sniper is less popular than EGRW, I mean, literally look at map votes and times hosted, the two ways to tell if a map is truly popular.

It seems popular maps don't need to follow the requirements because, I guess, their popular? If people are willing to play it and keep playing it over the course of months to years, such as Eric Gurt-railwars1, Stryde-sniper, X death-realwar, then there's some exception for these maps, coming from the developer of the game himself.
Fair? debatable
Happens? yes

There has never been consistency with anything in this game, especially with how maps get approved. Trying to apply requirements that were never followed in the first place to current approved maps will obviously cause conflict, because as Krutz has said, there's about 200 approved maps that violate some stupid requirement that no one ever knew about in the first place, including Eric.

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Voice Of the UnderWorld » 6 December 2017, 01:33

Max teabag wrote:People would not have devoted their efforts to mastering the map if it wasn't approved in the first place.


Sorry to break it for ya m8, but there are people who play and prefer playing maps which ain't approved.

Max teabag wrote:You're saying that we should punish players who devote time to mastering one particular map by unapproving if they get too good at it.


If map gets unapproved, punishing players definitely won't be the reason 4 it... reason would be that that map was lacking in some points in which approved maps must not lack. Matrixsniper lacked in way less points and it still got unapprove, so i do not see a reason to keep this map approved... actually idk why it even was approved for such a long period of the time...

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Re: [REMOVAL REQUEST] stryde-sniper

Postby Ty Q » 6 December 2017, 18:45

Krutz wrote:if anything were standardized here, it wouldnt be that stryde-sniper would get unapproved and others reapproved lol... i can literally find so many maps that violate the lemars that itll fill this forum to pages, which is the point i wanted to get across in the beginning

the lemars shouldnt even be looked at, theyre so bad


If you feel this way, then why didn't you push your idea further? Starting with a clean slate and getting a new approved maps list with maps that actually fit the approval requirements wouldn't hurt anybody.

But when the requirements are applied to some maps and not others, that's when conflict arises.

Stryde wrote:There is a precedent, however, its drastically different for popular maps, like EGRW.
It was (albeit jokingly) requested for unapproval, and it is still approved. If anyone thinks Stryde-sniper is less popular than EGRW, I mean, literally look at map votes and times hosted, the two ways to tell if a map is truly popular.

It seems popular maps don't need to follow the requirements because, I guess, their popular? If people are willing to play it and keep playing it over the course of months to years, such as Eric Gurt-railwars1, Stryde-sniper, X death-realwar, then there's some exception for these maps, coming from the developer of the game himself.
Fair? debatable
Happens? yes

There has never been consistency with anything in this game, especially with how maps get approved. Trying to apply requirements that were never followed in the first place to current approved maps will obviously cause conflict, because as Krutz has said, there's about 200 approved maps that violate some stupid requirement that no one ever knew about in the first place, including Eric.


It's foolish to compare stryde-sniper and eric gurt-railwars1. One of the map creators is the developer of the game. The other is not. Seeing as Eric went through the effort of making the game and the level editor itself, his maps shouldn't be expected to fit the map approval requirements.

Stryde wrote:Trying to apply requirements that were never followed in the first place to current approved maps will obviously cause conflict


Going by these words, you wanted to cause conflict by applying the "never-followed" requirements to already approved maps in your 8 map approval removal threads...

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