Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:(Krutz incorrectly says the shot takes 110 health immediately, which is easily shown false by the actual content of the video)
Bad quality image, but this is from his reply post:
http://prntscr.com/hiapukMaybe you're thinking of a different video in this thread, but this one was what grabbed my attention.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:but they're also completely irrelevant.
except they weren't because tburn claimed that you could fatally be killed from spawn to spawn, and neither 110 damage nor 143 damage (which is an additive damage total) is fatal
Death about one second after a shot seems pretty fatal to me. If my doctor told me I had a terminal disease that would kill me in twenty minutes from the diagnosis, I'd still fear for my life. Once you account for lag and other random variables in a match, 143 damage is a death sentence for all intents and purposes.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:or just go into a DM and watch the mass amounts of ordinary spawnkilling that happen in this map
thats not a valid argument to make, as that is a problem with the game and not the map
any map maker can only do so much to prevent "spawn-killing" in their map in deathmatch
This doesn't rebut the actual point I was making, which is that the extremely cramped environment of stryde-sniper in a near-full match in DM leads to an absurdly high volume of spawnkilling that you just won't see in most other maps.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:I might even go so far as to say that some new players have been driven away from competitive play, or maybe even PB2 in general, because the gameplay of stryde-sniper is so baffling to them.
this is just a little ridiculous, if a single map "drove people" to never play the game again then im not really sure what to tell you
If a single map dominates the servers to the point where the great diversity of the community's creations is not at all represented, and that map happens not to be of many people's tastes, then it's not hard to see why some people might not want to stick around. Nothing wrong with a devoted subcommunity, but plenty wrong with one that smothers the potential for any other such communities. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:Once you've beaten the campaign, you've got a certain level of skill that comes in handy starting out MP, but nothing there can prepare you for the situations you face in a stryde-sniper game. The map is great for those players who have devoted their time to mastering it, and could stay as a good tournament-competition map for people like that, but the notion that an approved map should have such an environment as Stryde-sniper's has always been ridiculous.
pb2 doesnt really have a solid tutorial—let's get that out of the way. i think that if a map "revolutionizes motion" for combat, then i think that is all the more reason to approve the map, especially if people enjoy playing on the map
This is a bad standard to use here, because various slow-motion maps (frostbyte's snipers, etc) and silent phoenix's "Outside Space" also "revolutionized" the way people moved and played--and it was later decided that the gameplay created by their environments was in violation of the approval standards. Obviously these maps had special features beyond self-boosting, but if egrw1 with its smaller mechanical quirks deserves to be edited so that it can better conform to the guidelines, then stryde-sniper deserves similar scrutiny.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:Also, can we discuss Stryde's own positions in this forum section?
why should we? his positions on other maps arent relevant to his position on this map
Because Stryde applies a certain standard to say a map should be unapproved, it's only fair to show how that standard can be used to show that his own map should be unapproved.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote:in addition to players' ability to just jump over the box at the top to make a pot-shot,
theres a difference between jumping 2 pixels and being able to be killed than jumping 27 pixels and being able to be killed, especially if that difference matters according to the LEMARs
If the difference in travel time between jumping 2 pixels and 27 pixels is just a second or less, I don't think nitpicking over pixel counts is a productive exercise.
Krutz wrote:bob67909 wrote: In area maps with wider open spaces and rapid-fire weapons, this is not nearly so much of an issue because you can make out people's positions by where their fire is coming from and a single firing line doesn't dominate the entire map
are you sure about that? weapons with a lower rate of fire are less oppressive across lines of fire than a weapon with a 2 second reload? you must be joking
With rapid-fire weapons in a map with open spaces, since you know where your opponent is coming from, it's possible to stake out a position, wait for opponents to come, then play strategically to get the upper hand. Spamming across long distances is very often a terrible strategy for this reason. But with a one-hit KO weapon in this sort of environment, much more of the gameplay environment is dependent on luck and initial position. A lucky kill only takes a lucky shot, and a lucky shot only takes a few milliseconds. With Stryde-sniper in particular, these problems are compounded because the open space is stretched across the entire diameter of the map, there are no routes of escape from the killing ground once you're in it, and with a near-full game conditions are cramped beyond belief.
Krutz wrote:and for people who clearly arent smart enough to decipher it themselves:
they arent "to have any meaning at all." just think about what happens if they did:
any damn map in the game violates the LEMARS. therell literally be 2 maps that dont, and theyre probably garbage and unfun.
to finish, the only thing that stryde-sniper is valid to be unapproved for is being unable to jump onto the spawn dividers. but if you do that, ill make sure to post a list of the 202 maps or so that violate the "spirit and word" of the manual in the same manner, and pb2's "competitive" atmosphere will truly, then, see prosperity
The first paragraph of this is ridiculous hyperbole and it demonstrates pretty clearly that your wanting to defend this map trumps your willingness to hold it to any reasonable standards. My main point is that this new forum section gives us a great opportunity to finally apply reasonable standards to PB2's approved maps, and stryde-sniper is pretty clearly a violation of some of those standards.
Max teabag wrote:Map approved -> Map got popular -> People devote time into the map -> People master the map -> New players get crushed.
People would not have devoted their efforts to mastering the map if it wasn't approved in the first place.
You're saying that we should punish players who devote time to mastering one particular map by unapproving if they get too good at it.
In essence, you argue that if a map gets too popular & players are too devoted, it should be unapproved.
Players will be discouraged from playing too good, map makers will get punished if their maps get too popular.
I think your argument is deeply flawed.
Your representation of what I've said is deeply flawed, and the fact that this was the only part of my post that you latched onto shows that. Stryde-sniper encourages a highly particularized style of play involving techniques which the level editor manual discourages from dominating gameplay in approved maps, among other flaws. The fact that it has become so popular with people who know how to exploit its flaws only exacerbates this problem. Once upon a time, people got extremely good at camping in ijer-sector, and they developed this strategy into a skill of its own right. The map was rightly edited to do away with this flaw. Stryde-sniper encourages tactics which are not quite as egregious as ijer-sector's, but come close in (1) being explicitly discouraged against in the level editor manual, (2) their extreme particularity to the map itself, (3) their being
especially disadvantageous to new players--in that order.
I also think you're wrong to assume that people wouldn't have devoted any time to mastering the map if it were never approved, because in years gone by people spent hours and hours trying to master juggernaut maps, ghost maps, class-based COOP maps, and highly innovative TDM maps like aslang and boze's fightforthebase maps. If Stryde-sniper had come out and people had seen the same appeal in it then as they do now, we would still have a devoted subcommunity playing it today. But we'll never know if this would have happened, because the map was approved as over-hastily it was made, and the rest is history. If you think stryde-sniper needs approval as a crutch to be popular, then maybe you think it doesn't deserve approval after all.