[CANCELLED] raffine-urbanwar

[Jason Eden]

[1]
- To the best of my knowledge, the following map fits all requirements to be approved: YES/NO
- The following map contains no unfair hidden features: YES/NO
- The following map contains nothing against the PB2 Code of Conduct: YES/NO
- I have read and understand fully the Required Reading for posting a Map Approval Request: YES/NO
- I have read and understand fully the Map Approval Rules: YES/NO

[2]
- Map Name: <> Urban War <>
- Map ID: raffine-urbanwar
- Link to Map Page: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=548241
- Link to Map Demo: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=2&map=raffine-urbanwar

[3]
- Give a brief description of the map: "This is edited version of original Urban War by raffine.

Set in the dark alleys of the most violent part of the city, this urban environment is home to numerous gang fights and brawls. With enemies coming from every direction, it will take more than just firepower to dominate!

(DM, TDM, COOP)"
- Why you think the map deserves to be approved: I'm pretty sure it was approved before. But for some unknown reason it was disapproved, why? If the issue is camp/spam then replace CS-RC with PHANX and it's done. Simple, right? Please re-approve this map asap. It is really good.
- Any other comments: None.

[49er]

This map is architecturally sound as an urban simulation. The style is, even keeping with the canon, uniquely real-worldy and familiar without being needlessly complicated. It's an interesting map even if it's a bit campy. And there are approved maps that are more campy than this one.

[phsc]

i really didnt like this map back in the day mostly cuz how camping is effective on it

these days i guess changing the guns can fix that problem quite easily n how spam is effective on it, mostly on the tops

and it really fits pb2s style, id remove these things tho http://prntscr.com/m2rpbi

i mean tehre are some really straight lines of fire on it and that kinda sucks
but considering that there are worse maps i guess mabye it should be approved
but i imagine it is a map that might be casually played

[GreekSholdierDARK CLAN]

The qualifiers of this stage for me did not impress me much.
But, in my opinion, it is worth being approved, because I liked the idea.

[Jason Eden]

Staffs, you've got your replies, you've got knowledge on how to fix the spam issue, and last but not least, you've got a popular map with over 76 votes. Now do your job and re-approve this map. You had a whole month to do it (approval request was posted on December 30th) while it should not take more than 10 minutes.

[Kiriakos Gr96]

@Jason Eden

Well i know that raffine-urbanwar has some issues that why i worked on a updated version (map-urbanwar) 1 month ago.
But i want to be sure that the map is ok to be approved that why its not approved yet.
Due to some irl duties i dont have that much time to make many playtests on that map and other maps.

[Jason Eden]

@Jason Eden

Well i know that raffine-urbanwar has some issues that why i worked on a updated version (map-urbanwar) 1 month ago.
But i want to be sure that the map is ok to be approved that why its not approved yet.
Due to some irl duties i dont have that much time to make many playtests on that map and other maps.

Back on topic, there is no need to disfigure the original urbanwar the way you did it with that (map-urbanwar) remake. You've made the map look much worse. Just replace the rifles in original map and it's done.

[Kiriakos Gr96]

Behavior like this is not welcome here you are warned.

Ontopic.
Explain me please why the map is much worse now exept the rifles.

[phsc]

Back on topic, there is no need to disfigure the original urbanwar the way you did it with that (map-urbanwar) remake. You've made the map look much worse. Just replace the rifles in original map and it's done.

Anyway, arguments for that? looks are subjective, I do think the weapons should be changed but I think that the decoration with the plants on the top don't fit pb2s style, and there are a few spraying problems in specific areas, as there are camping, and I did like kiriakos' edit of it

[Jason Eden]

Ontopic. Map-urbanwar.
1) You replaced spammy rifle Assault Rifle CS-RC with another spammy rifle called Combat Rifle CS-OICW while I told you to replace it with PHANX-92 Rifle. Why do you never listen? Read my post again.

If the issue is camp/spam then replace CS-RC with PHANX and it's done. Simple, right?

2) You added god damn teleporters. Why? Urbanwar was pretty fair because the layout let you calculate your moves and moves of your enemies. But now, since you've added the teleporters, people will use it to come from nowhere and get insta-kills or insta-killed. http://prntscr.com/mgj6ed http://prntscr.com/mgjb2h
3) You replaced wonderful flowers with stupid mined barrels. Why? For the love of God, why? PB2 takes place in the future, but does it mean that people in future don't live in the buildings, can't have flowers on top of the roof? Dystopia?
4) You added a fourth floor to the left building and created a perfect camp spot http://prntscr.com/mgj96j. Besides it made the building look more monotonous and simple as fourth floor has no differences to third floor, as third floor has no differences to second floor, as the second floor has no differences to the first floor. It's an aesthetic issue. This is what I meant when I said that you disfigured the original map. If you add new stuff to the map - make sure it looks original and fits the map. Do not just Ctrl+C -> Ctrl+V first thing you click on.

I repeat: what you have to do is to replace Assault Rifle CS-RC with PHANX-92 Rifle and re-approve the map. Do you understand?

[phsc]

Ontopic. Map-urbanwar.
1) You replaced spammy rifle Assault Rifle CS-RC with another spammy rifle called Combat Rifle CS-OICW while I told you to replace it with PHANX-92 Rifle. Why do you never listen? Read my post again.

And? it is still less spammy, did you ever play the map? why does he have to obbey you? what if YOU ARE WRONG(most of the time you really are)

2) You added god damn teleporters. Why? Urbanwar was pretty fair because the layout let you calculate your moves and moves of your enemies. But now, since you've added the teleporters, people will use it to come from nowhere and get insta-kills or insta-killed. http://prntscr.com/mgj6ed http://prntscr.com/mgjb2h

Maybe because camping was a big problem?

3) You replaced wonderful flowers with stupid mined barrels. Why? For the love of God, why? PB2 takes place in the future, but does it mean that people in future don't live in the buildings, can't have flowers on top of the roof? Dystopia?

First of all I never saw those as flowers, yet as random plants, and why are they stupid? it fits PB2s lore better, it makes no sense for a complete urban enviroment to have some random plants, if the map had a few more maybe, also they really suck, aren't you the one who said maps shouldn't have pixelart huh lostmydollar? proceeds to make a map about pixelart, OH WAIT WE NEED MORE!

4) You added a fourth floor to the left building and created a perfect camp spot http://prntscr.com/mgj96j. Besides it made the building look more monotonous and simple as fourth floor has no differences to third floor, as third floor has no differences to second floor, as the second floor has no differences to the first floor. It's an aesthetic issue. This is what I meant when I said that you disfigured the original map. If you add new stuff to the map - make sure it looks original and fits the map. Do not just Ctrl+C -> Ctrl+V first thing you click on.

I agree with that camping spot, maybe change it back, but it is not more monotonous, aethetic things are purely subjective.

[Hikarikaze]

About map-urbanwar, I don't understand the point of having teleporters in the map from a thematic point of view. This is supposed to take place in an urban setting, which is likely a civilian area. Why would buildings have teleporters in that regard? So far I've seen some of these edits as acceptable ideas from a gameplay perspective, except these ideas don't entirely focus of making sure it made sense with the map concept. Flowers and plants on a roof at least made some sense considering gardens on the roof of buildings are a thing, even today. I personally thought it was a neat little detail that was in contrast with the "dystopian" look of the map.

Now onto the OICW issues itself. I noticed that the CS-RCs don't penetrate these blocks on the map, even if you stand by them and try to shoot through them. The OICWs shoot through them like paper, which renders them useless in terms of protection. It's essentially almost the same as not having those blocks there in the first place. What's worse is that you can penetrate them from a distance, meaning you can likely spam OICWs across lanes from a certain range without needing to get close. With the CS-RC, you at least couldn't do this. For reference, I managed to kill someone while standing right here with the OICW. This is barely near the center of the map; in fact, it's just right outside the red team spawn.

As for the spamming part in general, I'm not sure if anyone read my post back on the realwar debacle as to why OICWs aren't a good choice for trying to fix spamming. They're naturally more accurate than the CS-RC, even if you spam them, which just ironically gives more reason to spam them. The PHANX is accurate too, but it's slower and it can't penetrate through the walls that the OICW easily can. Being a burst weapon, the OICW can deal more DPS than the PHANX over time. It doesn't help that due to the burst firing mode, the OICW can technically fire off three shots quicker than a PHANX. This is where the increased damage in comparison comes from. OICWs don't belong in this map, simply because they're just too powerful damage wise and especially due to their penetration power, and having them in the map is a bad choice.

For the PHANX, I don't think it's that bad of a choice honestly. Thematically it fits in, and it's not absurdly powerful like the OICW either. It's one of the most accurate automatic weapons in the game but against 150 HP opponents, it does mediocre damage when you land just regular body shots. My own tests showed it only takes about 4-5 shots to kill someone with 150 HP, which isn't that bad for a fast paced game. It's only really powerful with headshots, but this is just a game mechanic, and there's no issue with headshots being more lethal. I'd argue headshots are more of a feat of skill; getting these quick 2-3 shot kills is just the pay-off for doing so.

I spent time evaluating the damage potential of each rifle that fits with the theme of urbanwar, as well as determining the fact as to whether they render the thin blocks of cover useless like the OICW or not. The point is to simply choose the best option out of the list to replace both the CS-RC (if necessary) and the OICW with (which is very necessary).

Spoiler: Show More

PHANX
Bodyshots required: 4-5 shots
Headshots required: 2-3 shots
Accuracy: High (has a low and fixed amount of bloom)
Spamming viability: Viable, due to high accuracy
Penetrates through cover: No

Is this weapon a good choice overall? Yes. High accuracy may lead to spamming but I think its damage values even the weapon out.

CS-RC
Bodyshots required: 5-7 shots
Headshots required: 4-5 shots
Accuracy: High to moderate (reticule bloom increases to a high amount over time)
Spamming viability: Viable for only a limited amount of time (due to weapon bloom)
Penetrates through cover: No

Is this weapon a good choice overall? Yes, but the potential to spam may be a problem.

AV-135
Bodyshots required: 5-7 shots
Headshots required: 3-4 shots
Accuracy: High to slightly low (bloom works similar to CS-RC but increases at a quicker rate)
Spamming viability: Not so viable, due to a quicker bloom increase rate
Penetrates through cover: No

Is this weapon a good choice overall? Yes. It's a similar option to the CS-RC specs wise but solves some issues like spamming better.

CR-45
Bodyshots required: 3-5 shots
Headshots required: 3 shots
Accuracy: High (has a low and fixed amount of bloom)
Spamming viability: Viable, due to high accuracy and decent RoF
Penetrates through cover: Yes

Is this weapon a good choice overall? No. It's essentially a mix of the PHANX and OICW's major strengths.

LMG-01m
Bodyshots required: At least 6 shots
Headshots required: At least 3 shots
Accuracy: High to slightly low (reticule bloom increases greatly really quickly over time)
Spamming viability: Not viable, due to the quick bloom increase rate
Penetrates through cover: Yes

Is this weapon a good choice overall? No. It's a very bad fit for a map like urbanwar and would dominate the map entirely.

CP-Assault Rifle
Bodyshots required: About 6-8 shots
Headshots required: At least 5 shots
Accuracy: Very high (very fast bloom recovery rate so the next shot is always just as accurate as the last)
Spamming viability: Yes, due to high accuracy and fast fire rate.
Penetrates through cover: No

Is this weapon a good choice overall? Not really. Damage wise it's not that great of a gun, but the accuracy and fast fire rate will encourage players to spam this rifle across longer distances. The reticule bloom is essentially the same with every shot, even if the crosshair does expand to prove otherwise. It's all for show, really.

Keep in mind these are findings I found in my own tests so don't assume these values to be 100% correct. Take them with a grain of salt. From what I've found, the best options I'd personally vouch for are the PHANX and the AV-135. The others I've listed as a good choice aren't as good of a choice as these two weapons personally, but they're worth giving a shot in my opinion, no pun intended.

I can't say anything about the slight architectural changes on map-urbanwar. I'd say look into changing the weapons only on the original version and see how the map performs, then if that doesn't work out too well, we can afterwards assess the weapons on map-urbanwar if weapons really aren't the sole problem with the map and see how that goes.

[ditzy]

I thought those things were trees.

^ About the trees, has anyone seen the photos of bombed cities located in Syria? This map reminds me of those pictures and I don't think Kiri's version is totally out of the question, a e s t h i t i c ally.

----

About the weapon argument, you guys have to consider the weapons at level 3, since all weapons are automatically buffed to level 3 in multiplayer. At level 3 the PHANX-92 and AV-135 both penetrate 3 width walls. This puts the PHANX in the same position as the OICW and makes the AV overpowered.

> PHANX-92 would be able to penetrate thin walls
> AV-135 has better damage + pierce than the CS-RC, a good tradeoff for accuracy (which isn't even important in a close CQC map)

Here's a few of my own weapon suggestions

Spoiler: Show More

• C-01r
  It's a low-damage low-accuracy weapon. However, it boasts a high RoF which is probably the opposite of what you guys want. Additionally, it's a very sci-fi weapon; a e s t h i t i c ally unpleasing to some.
  
• QccV-50/CR-42 (SMG)
  A bit more 'realistic' and fits the urban warfare theme. May suffer from same spam issues as the C-01r though.
  
• CS-DAZ
  Maybe you could try using shotguns instead of rifles?

Also, has anyone considered that if you can't fix a map by swapping out a few weapons, maybe there's something wrong with the map itself?

[phsc]

wasnt there some rule made so you can modify guns? the cs-rc with a slower firerate would be perfect imo, maybe even the av135 if edited

but if theme changes could be made, i think the alien shotgun could be really great for the map too

but i mean, try out shotguns or smth, maybe try out anything at all if it works we can just take some random gun and mod it into another gun so it looks good or smth



anyway, on what hik said

the map had big camping problems back then, i remember that but even if you dont trust me, well theres a comment about that http://prntscr.com/mgppsn , the teleporters are supposed to fix that, imo balance > aethetics

i dont like the plants, i dont think it fits pb2s style, imo if the map had nothing on that rooftop it would be good enought




and another thing, i think what is missing here is actually playing the map with a decent amount of people, in theory things work out very different than in practice, i did play it with kiriakos when he made his edit and the oicw was more balanced - mostly when related to spam - than the cs-rc, but it was a 1v1 tho

[Hikarikaze]

the map had big camping problems back then, i remember that but even if you dont trust me, well theres a comment about that http://prntscr.com/mgppsn , the teleporters are supposed to fix that, imo balance > aethetics

I know urbanwar had problems with camping, and I don't mind the teleports being a solution to that in terms of gameplay, but the point I was trying to make is that having teleporters detracts from the overall idea of the map, which is meant to mimic an urban setting. Teleporters don't really belong in this type of setting, and there are other alternatives that could be done that work as a possible solution as well fit the map theme thematically.

Personally I'd keep the teleporting in place but remove the teleporter decors themselves. Just use backgrounds to make an "entrance" to an elevator or staircase. It'll look like the player simply took an elevator or staircase when in terms of gameplay, they still teleported. It'll make sense on both fronts.

[Silent Aurora]

I removed all the off-topic comments in everyone's post. If I missed anything out, send me a forum PM.

As for you Jason, Staff are not obligated to accept user demends when it comes to map approvals. We look at the map, we evaluate it and see if it fits the requirements and players satisfactions when it comes to gameplay. That said, we take our own time because it's not rational to rush into decisions just because someone couldn't wait.

Next time you raise your tone, you will be dealing with me, not Kiri. Don't bother replying to this, if you have something to say then send me a forum PM, otherwise you'll get warned again for posting off-topic. That goes for everyone else, take your off-topic conversations to PMs.

Thanks.

[IceRGodZ]

Or just make the doors bigger to not shoot through them, problem fixed. And isn’t it already OBVIOUS for 2-3 pros to team on three buildings already and camp hard? I remember showing Sparken this around 2015.. and it got removed from the list of Ap. Maps

the teleporters, idk what purpose they really have. I don’t know, Kira has his thoughts

combat rifles do seem alright to add

this map will be “I must stay on top and gain ppp and leave” as its small and campy, while disadvantages happen since you are forced in buildings and have limited momentum

[Jason Eden]

And isn’t it already OBVIOUS for 2-3 pros to team on three buildings already and camp hard?

Just like in any other approved map. This is why rule #10.1 (Your gameplay style must be fair to all players. The following are not allowed: - Unfair teaming in approved/ranked deathmatches) exists. And in TDM around 90% of currently approved maps will turn into what you've said. Either disapprove them all or don't make an exception for urbanwar only.

Staffs, you were supposed to start approving maps on the 5th of February. Today is the 6th of February. And I don't notice any differences on this page. Why did you lie to me? Don't forget about fixing sector too.

[Tempus]

Jason,

As I said to you before in a email. Cool, Your, Jets. Relax. My team is busy with real life and are doing other things than 24/7 looking at maps & approving right at the moment.

We have a staff meeting coming up and we're focusing on other projects (such like Plazma League).

I don't expect you to understand. I am telling you to relax and wait like everyone else for their map to be reviewed. An approval request does not guarantee an approval. We don't always approve a map on just looks and functionality.

I am personally looking at maps in the order of which they were sent... 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 & page 1. If you keep bumping it you're putting yourself in last.

Additionally insulting my team just makes thing worse for yourself and gives us more reason to not look at your maps. We have tried to be friendly with you, we expect the same in return.

About this request, send us the map page that you want replaced with other page.

[IceRG]

Just like in any other approved map. This is why rule #10.1 (Your gameplay style must be fair to all players. The following are not allowed: - Unfair teaming in approved/ranked deathmatches) exists. And in TDM around 90% of currently approved maps will turn into what you've said. Either disapprove them all or don't make an exception for urbanwar only.

Staffs, you were supposed to start approving maps on the 5th of February. Today is the 6th of February. And I don't notice any differences on this page. Why did you lie to me? Don't forget about fixing sector too.

What about if one camps on the left side, where you have shown te perfect camp spot? and one camps on the top right side? and arent teaming?