[APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

[APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

Postby Jason Eden » 19 February 2019, 21:25

[1]
- To the best of my knowledge, the following map fits all requirements to be approved: YES/NO
- The following map contains no unfair hidden features: YES/NO
- The following map contains nothing against the PB2 Code of Conduct: YES/NO
- I have read and understand fully the Required Reading for posting a Map Approval Request: YES/NO
- I have read and understand fully the Map Approval Rules: YES/NO

[2]
- Map Name: Red Vs Blue [2] - The Construction Site
- Map ID: jason eden-rvb2
- Link to Map Page: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=9&a=&m= ... &id=926433
- Link to Map Demo: https://www.plazmaburst2.com/?s=2&map=jason%20eden-rvb2

[3]
- Give a brief description of the map: This map was made to demonstrate the community the meaning of word "quality".
- Why you think the map deserves to be approved: It is unique and it fits all the requirements to be approved.
- Any other comments: Honestly, I did not want to use colored backgrounds and unnecessary features such as a multilevel elevator in a 3 level building, but since this community consists mainly of children who like impractical but nice looking things, I've decided to give it a try, for the experiment.

Preview:
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Jason Eden
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

Postby ditzy » 20 February 2019, 02:05

Objective points
  • Top left is pretty campy and the entire rooftop section is pretty sprayable.
  • You can't descend the stairs properly and the player will often hit the upper stairwell when trying to get down.

Subjective points
  • The elevator is cool, if not a bit slow.
  • I like the attention to detail you put on the buildings, but the actual layout is rather boring in my opinion. As well, linear maps tend to devolve into "whoever holds the x key the best wins"

I have mixed feelings on this map, but the decor is definitely a plus.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

Postby Jason Eden » 20 February 2019, 12:39

ditzy wrote:Objective points
  • Top left is pretty campy and the entire rooftop section is pretty sprayable.
  • You can't descend the stairs properly and the player will often hit the upper stairwell when trying to get down.

Subjective points
  • The elevator is cool, if not a bit slow.
  • I like the attention to detail you put on the buildings, but the actual layout is rather boring in my opinion. As well, linear maps tend to devolve into "whoever holds the x key the best wins"

I have mixed feelings on this map, but the decor is definitely a plus.

1) Roofs are sprayable for the same reason why they are sprayable in my second urbanwar remake - to make camping more dangerous for campers. Eric approved this way of fixing the camp issue in original urbanwar, so I guess it will as well work out in this map. Simply avoid going to the uncovered areas such as roofs and you'll be fine.
2) I don't think it is possible to fix this issue without making things become even worse. Hold "S" while going down or look in the opposite direction and you won't start climbing the upper stairwell. Or just go slower, like a normal person.
3) If you try to press the elevator button and get away from teleportation region, you will notice that it's only a 3 seconds pause between closing the doors on the floor you're on and opening the doors on target floor. It was made for a minimal level of realism. But I understand why it gives you such feeling. Being in a static 2x2 room makes time go really slow.
4) "Boring"? Okay. And I consider your maps boring. Does it make me right? No. As for pressing X to win, you may be right, but I still don't consider it a good reason to avoid creating this kind of maps. Afterall, I consider it a lot better and more innovative than classic maps people make nowadays.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

Postby phsc » 20 February 2019, 17:27

Jason Eden wrote:1) Roofs are sprayable for the same reason why they are sprayable in my second urbanwar remake - to make camping more dangerous for campers. Eric approved this way of fixing the camp issue in original urbanwar, so I guess it will as well work out in this map. Simply avoid going to the uncovered areas such as roofs and you'll be fine.

First of all it implies that camping is possible in normal realwar versions, and in mine and if I have a good memory, in Kiriakos' edit too, rooftop is not a problem, mostly because the real OP part to go rooftop camping is the right side not left and you almost don't change it in yours second realwar edit, so in my opinion that was some form of non sequitur kind of an argument using the comparation but it does indeed remove camping in rvb2 and this is what matters.
But thing is, why would what Eric approves be the best, always? should we not try to convince Eric he is wrong just because he unironically is PB2s god? I mean it is not like he needs to accept what we say, and it is not like he needs to be fair and I mean if he wants to go banning people for no reason he can because PB2 is his private property and it might be unfair but it is his right, but, it does not make so we cannot criticize his choices, and if he does not want it to happen, we can still do it and maybe we will suffer consequences or something.
But anyway, your argument is invalid for the point you are defending, your map does not have many camping problems related to that, what would be the top camping spots are really easily countered with the use of cover and the easy method of movement your map has, not only considering rushing is way more of a choice with the lower HP values, if you do a great self boost get two shots in you and then kill the enemy but very likely die from fall damage or other bullets, it is still valid, and of course you can just run from it.
But your argument is still bad, look at this:
Jason Eden wrote:Simply avoid going to the uncovered areas such as roofs and you'll be fine.

Not only there are spawns there, that argument can be used for everything, every single camping spot can also be countered that way, that is not a valid argument, it is like "ignore that problem" or "just don't do it" instead of fixing a problem or dealing with it.

Jason Eden wrote:2) I don't think it is possible to fix this issue without making things become even worse. Hold "S" while going down or look in the opposite direction and you won't start climbing the upper stairwell. Or just go slower, like a normal person.

I don't agree with what Ditzy said, and I also don't agree with your method of fixing it, just use S when going down and then X, really fast, not a problem.

Jason Eden wrote:3) If you try to press the elevator button and get away from teleportation region, you will notice that it's only a 3 seconds pause between closing the doors on the floor you're on and opening the doors on target floor. It was made for a minimal level of realism. But I understand why it gives you such feeling. Being in a static 2x2 room makes time go really slow.

Nope, 3 seconds for a teleport is terrible, this is one of the things I don't like about the map, the elevator is bad, first of all I am not sure how exactly it is synced if a new player joins while other is in the elevator or something, not sure if a problem or not, but the real big deal is that, it sucks, it is just terrible, you can know when someone is going to teleport, it is at most a terrible escape method because in these 3 seconds you can of course die while the door opens, but then even if you go in someone can go to a upper floor in a quite similar time, not at your exact position but in a position where he can shoot you while the door is still opening.
And aren't you the one who doesn't like teleports? I think this is terrible, but design wise it is indeed cool.
And the fact the room is small does not really affect it, I don't feel like it is quicker or slower being in or being out of it while another person uses it.

Jason Eden wrote:4) "Boring"? Okay. And I consider your maps boring. Does it make me right? No. As for pressing X to win, you may be right, but I still don't consider it a good reason to avoid creating this kind of maps. Afterall, I consider it a lot better and more innovative than classic maps people make nowadays.

Ditzy wrote:Subjective points

But I think Ditzy just made a poor word choice, with "boring" I think he meant more of as too linear, not much variety, which is true, the general map does not offer many options for anything, the general combat zones are really similar, and the gun choices are also similar, it does also not offer much room for creativity, but I wouldn't consider it a problem since stryde-sniper also has the exact same problems and nobody seems to complain, other than IceR in a ironic way of course.


Jason Eden wrote:This map was made to demonstrate the community the meaning of word "quality".

No, you really should read Human Action, you need to understand how a few things work, anyway, this is a medium quality map in my opinion, the decoration is quite good, and as Ditzy mentioned the map layout is kinda boring, but quality is a pure subjective concept, one can find electronic music of quality and one can find baroque music of quality.
So I will use the concept I always use for a objective method for criticizing maps, the world art, which comes from ars from greek, which means virtuosity, technique.
This map is not virtuous, it is not something hard to make, it is not impressive, at most maybe really maybe the elevator but it does not compare with true virtuosity such as maps by Mrnat, and by that the trigger complex ones, or that random space series by that dude I forgot the name of, this is not virtuous.
Technique? this does not show much knowledge of the level editor and it's things too, nothing extremely complex or interesting, again at most the elevator.
So I think I got my message well.

Jason Eden wrote:Honestly, I did not want to use colored backgrounds and unnecessary features such as a multilevel elevator in a 3 level building, but since this community consists mainly of children who like impractical but nice looking things, I've decided to give it a try, for the experiment.

Then why did you? if you did not this map would have, considering PB2s common sense, low quality, and even less objective artistic value, which cannot be counted yet specified by one using actual arguments which is the most we are achieving.
Not only that, you use a crappy ad hominem argument as proof for it, and in my opinion and I would say some staff members and the general PB2 discord community, you are the child, but a spoiled and narcissistic child.

I personally like the map, not sure how balanced it would be, I played it with Ditzy and Hexagon(Lonewolf76), we played the map more as they disconnected, there was a glitch with Hex at one time too but I don't think it is map related.


I don't know if this should be approved, I am doing a critique over map approval which I am very likely going to post here which explains what and most importantly why I don't consider some approval requeriments necessary, as I also think Eric and staff should make a few things more objective, I am also making one for PB2s Rules of Conduct in the future.

And now I will just wait your terrible and immature ad hominems, ad antiquitatems, non causae ut causae and many other fallacies, as you cannot take actual criticism.

Or get ignored, the second option is most likely what will happen, and I think I explained why in this reply.
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Re: [APPROVAL REQUEST] jason eden-rvb2

Postby Jason Eden » 20 February 2019, 20:32

Map is approved. Topic locked.
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