Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

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Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby maxim12 » 16 December 2016, 17:11

Not sure if this is has been suggested before, but let me suggest this.

I find that there are many things wrong in the weapon balance. Some weapons seem to be a "Better" version of another weapon, example: CS-Pistol and C-01p-Pistol. C-01p Pistol has complete advantage over CS-Pistol; Better Projectile damage, better projectile penetration, better fire rate. Thats just wrong, right?

All weapons should have their own advantages and their own Dis-advantages, and not that Weapon "X" is better version of Weapon "Y".

Here are my suggestions:

C-01p Pistol
Nerf Projetile damage, Nerf the projectie Penetration.

CS-Pistol
Buff Projectile damage, Buff the projectile Penetration.

CS-BNG
Make it a charge-able weapon. You need to hold the fire bottom to fully charge the weapon to shoot at full power.

Alien Shotgun
Slightly nerf the Fire rate. Make it a slot 2 weapon, because it acts more like an assault rifle weapon than a shotgun. Rename the weapon to Advanced Alien Rifle. And make a replacement for it that will be a an Alien Shotgun, perhaps a Rail-Shotgun hybrid as a Alien shotgun.

C-01a Assault Rifle
Slightly buff the Fire rate.

Alien Rifle
Slightly buff the Projectile damage.


Any critism is welcome.

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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby tehswordninja » 16 December 2016, 22:44

maxim12 wrote:Not sure if this is has been suggested before, but let me suggest this.

I find that there are many things wrong in the weapon balance. Some weapons seem to be a "Better" version of another weapon, example: CS-Pistol and C-01p-Pistol. C-01p Pistol has complete advantage over CS-Pistol; Better Projectile damage, better projectile penetration, better fire rate. Thats just wrong, right?

All weapons should have their own advantages and their own Dis-advantages, and not that Weapon "X" is better version of Weapon "Y".

Here are my suggestions:

C-01p Pistol
Nerf Projetile damage, Nerf the projectie Penetration.

CS-Pistol
Buff Projectile damage, Buff the projectile Penetration.

CS-BNG
Make it a charge-able weapon. You need to hold the fire bottom to fully charge the weapon to shoot at full power.

Alien Shotgun
Slightly nerf the Fire rate. Make it a slot 2 weapon, because it acts more like an assault rifle weapon than a shotgun. Rename the weapon to Advanced Alien Rifle. And make a replacement for it that will be a an Alien Shotgun, perhaps a Rail-Shotgun hybrid as a Alien shotgun.

C-01a Assault Rifle
Slightly buff the Fire rate.

Alien Rifle
Slightly buff the Projectile damage.


Any critism is welcome.


1. If it gets a fire rate increase to make up for this, sure

2. I don't see why not, its a rather slow pistol in the first place

3. This feature should probably be added to some other guns (like the Heavy Railgun), and for some, the only way to actually fire a projectile should be having to fully charge, while guns like the CS-BNG can be shot at any time, however lowering the damage if fired early (but also lowering the recharge).

4. Nah, I like the weapon as is. I'd like to see the Alien rifle get changed over this.

5. Give it some worse accuracy then. And I think the Minigun deserves fire rate, not the C-01r

6. Either that or give it something unique (3 round burst, charged burst, faster fire rate the more you hold it down, etc).


Now for my own weapon rebalance, while I'm at it:

Ray Rifle: Nerf its projectile speed, to on par or worse than the CS-BNG. This would be a good downside to its otherwise very high stats, while making it take some skill to use.

Sniper Rifle: Give it a default 5 round mag (aka 5 shots till recharge), and make the fire rate much faster, with a slight damage nerf. To promote taking your time with shots, your spread would go up heavily if you fired it somewhat fast, but if you waited a few seconds, your spread would go down. Buff the range.

Heavy Railgun: Give it a 2-3 second charge. Buff the accuracy a tad.

Grenade Launcher: Nerf the fire rate (at least in campaign).

Minigun: Seeing as it will have a rev up time in PB2.5 among other traits, I think it would be fitting to nerf the damage heavily but give it 20 rps (double its current).

Alien Pistol (rails): This weapon should get bouncing rails, and an insane fire rate (basically a continuous beam) but very low damage per shot.

Plasmagun: I think its projectiles should have some slight homing to them, to make the weapon a tad more unique. Nerf its damage a bit.

CS-DAZ: Needs a hefty range nerf.

C-01s: Same as above, but slightly longer ranged than the CS-DAZ.

That's all I have for now.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby GhostX5 » 19 December 2016, 11:29

I think the Assault Rifle CS-RC's range should be slightly doubled a bit, like C-01r's, so it would be a matching rival against two weapons, and the firing rate should be fast a bit, like the C-01r, but a small bit. So doing 3 round burst would be accurate, among with single shots. Full auto, well, it should slow down the character's movement a bit when firing. Crouching gives extra accuracy, same with C-01r.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby maxim12 » 2 January 2017, 22:44

tehswordninja wrote:*Snip*



I think your weapon rebalance suggestion is good too. :)

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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby Max teabag » 4 January 2017, 03:59

maxim wrote:[weapons are unbalanced] Thats just wrong, right?

No.

How is that 'just wrong'?

Why are you trying to balance the BNG? What are you comparing it against? It's completely fine that the BNG is stronger than the CS-pistol. Map makers can for example decide that there might be 1 BNG and 16 pistols. And for example the BNG is in the middle so you encourage people rushing instead of camping in coop matches.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby tehswordninja » 4 January 2017, 13:37

Max teabag wrote:
maxim wrote:[weapons are unbalanced] Thats just wrong, right?

No.

How is that 'just wrong'?

Why are you trying to balance the BNG? What are you comparing it against? It's completely fine that the BNG is stronger than the CS-pistol. Map makers can for example decide that there might be 1 BNG and 16 pistols. And for example the BNG is in the middle so you encourage people rushing instead of camping in coop matches.

Adding a charging feature would invoke a bit of skill as well as help stop weapon combos, however like I suggested it should be able to fire at any time, but in order to get full damage you must fully charge the weapon.

But if any weapon really needs this, it should be the heavy railgun, imo.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby Max teabag » 4 January 2017, 15:35

tehswordninja wrote:Adding a charging feature would invoke a bit of skill as well as help stop weapon combos, however like I suggested it should be able to fire at any time, but in order to get full damage you must fully charge the weapon.

But if any weapon really needs this, it should be the heavy railgun, imo.


I'm not opposed to making guns behave differently, what I don't get is why weapons need to be "balanced".
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby tehswordninja » 4 January 2017, 16:19

Max teabag wrote:
tehswordninja wrote:Adding a charging feature would invoke a bit of skill as well as help stop weapon combos, however like I suggested it should be able to fire at any time, but in order to get full damage you must fully charge the weapon.

But if any weapon really needs this, it should be the heavy railgun, imo.


I'm not opposed to making guns behave differently, what I don't get is why weapons need to be "balanced".


They need to be balanced because, well, they do. (at least some of them)

And to be fair, a lot of this "balancing" is really just reworking the gun to be more fun, or to be a bit more unique. So I think for PB2.5, we do need balancing, both in terms of making the weapons more fair, and making them more unique.
Example: The Ray Rifle. It's almost (if not is) a direct upgrade to the C-01r. It certainly needs to be balanced. Now, this could just be lowering the rate of fire or something, but this could also be reworking the weapon to be unique and interesting.
An example of this is the Minigun, actually. You might already consider it "balanced" in PB2, but Eric is making it less like a higher damage high spread C-01r by adding features such as a spin up time, (I swear he talked about other changes but I can't recall them) which reworks how the weapon plays and makes it unique.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby DoomWrath » 4 January 2017, 17:08

Guns in games only really need balancing fully if they are locked behind game currency paywalls or experience levels. This ensures that all players who engage in combat are somewhat equal, no matter their experience or currency level.

All the gun types in a map are available to all players, so it's completely fair and even to all players to have guns vary in overall effectiveness. As Max Teabag said, if there's a limited number of more powerful guns in the match, people will fight over them. Sure, the guy with the minigun will be better off than an equally skilled player with an alien pistol, but that power is naturally balanced when the next guy gets the minigun and goes on their own killing spree.

Making all guns such as the 3 pistols equal would mess with the campaign and SP levels too, as a certain enemy encountered early in a map series with Gun A (weak) will be easier to combat than an enemy in a later, harder level with Gun B (strong).
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby Hikarikaze » 5 January 2017, 01:42

I don't think weapons need balancing in the game since each weapon has its own skill level to get used to. The problem here, I reckon, is that some weapons don't need much effort to use but that doesn't warrant it being balanced, especially when they do certain roles just fine. However, some people here are forgetting that each weapon is good and bad in certain situations and are ignoring their intended roles more for the sake of balancing them. I've come up with some changes that should, in theory, make weapons more in their suitable and intended roles. Some make the weapons more unique in their respective classes while some are just basic changes

maxim12 wrote:C-01p Pistol
Nerf Projetile damage, Nerf the projectie Penetration.

CS-Pistol
Buff Projectile damage, Buff the projectile Penetration.

I think pistols are fine here. They're not supposed to be on par with say, rifles and shotguns for example. Slot 1 weapons are only really just backup weapons that you use to defend yourself but not necessarily kill outright, i.e it offers some kind of protection with the drawback of lacking easy killing capability.

C-01p: Why nerf the damage? It's the only pistol in its class to deliver power more than the rest and is supposed to be used as an aggressive weapon. That's why it's closer in regards to slot 2 weapons and the TTK with a C-01p in an approved map (if we're talking 130-150 HP) is generally realistic for a pistol. In this case, it'd be better off to reduce the penetration of the projectiles so that it can balance out the damage output and have the weapon still retain its offensive capability and nature.

CS pistol: This needs a downside otherwise it'd be a reincarnate of the C-01p. It's practically what pistols should be in terms of its role and it does its job just fine. Granted it doesn't kill people as fast as you would want, but the point of pistols isn't to kill people in 2 shots and call it a day. It's a backup weapon and should be treated as such.

What really needs to be looked at is the Alien Pistol, which is often overlooked because of better options like the C-01p. A slight damage boost would make the weapon more viable; at least bring it up to par with the CS pistol while retaining its passive trait of possessing the fastest projectile travel time. Either that or increase the fire rate while keeping the same damage output. It'll counter not being able to shoot through walls and make the Alien Pistol more viable overall

maxim12 wrote:CS-BNG
Make it a charge-able weapon. You need to hold the fire bottom to fully charge the weapon to shoot at full power

No, this isn't really needed. The projectile should travel slower but have a faster reload since it already deals enough damage on direct hit and possesses an AoE while its traveling. Consecutive shots should deal less damage over time per shot - both in direct hits and in its AoE (or the AoE's range can slowly decrease) - to prevent spamming and easy kills from multiple projectiles. Damage from direct hits and the AoE both make the BNG valuable as a weapon that actually does its job as a heavy weapon, which is to deal massive amounts of damage in a short amount of time

maxim12 wrote:Alien Shotgun
Slightly nerf the Fire rate. Make it a slot 2 weapon, because it acts more like an assault rifle weapon than a shotgun. Rename the weapon to Advanced Alien Rifle. And make a replacement for it that will be a an Alien Shotgun, perhaps a Rail-Shotgun hybrid as a Alien shotgun.

Or you can simply increase the spread of the Alien Shotgun, making it less of a rifle and more of a shotgun. That would kill its viability in longer ranges and bring the weapon closer to short-mid range, which is where the Alien Shotgun should be. It shouldn't have too much spread since that makes it less unique as a shotgun with rifle traits and would practically be a faster firing CS-DAZ or C-01s. The Alien Shotgun still needs to keep the unique trait of being the best shotgun in mid-range

maxim12 wrote:Alien Rifle
Slightly buff the Projectile damage.

That would make it a better weapon than the other rifles since it excels in damage output better than the CS-RC and the C-01r with a sacrifice to speed. To me, the damage should be the same but the Alien Rifle should have the same fire rate (delay between shots). However, instead of firing single shots, the rifle should fire in 2 round bursts, with the same time delay between bursts. This'll help lower the TTK, make the rifle still viable for long range, make the weapon more unique, and make the rifle possess enough speed so that it kills enemies in roughly the same pace but not in a single burst. It'd be 2 round simply due to the fact that at least 2-3 bursts would be required (in comparison to 1-2 bursts if it was three shot) and the delay can help other players take down people with the Alien Rifle before they fire the next burst. Unlike cases with faster RoF automatics, players with the Alien Rifle will actually have to aim their shots since they'll be pressured more due to the burst delay, meaning that the rifle won't be a spray and pray weapon. It's not intended for that purpose

tehswordninja wrote:Ray Rifle: Nerf its projectile speed, to on par or worse than the CS-BNG. This would be a good downside to its otherwise very high stats, while making it take some skill to use.

I always regarded the Ray Rifle as a CQC weapon so it having more spread over longer distances should counter the fast fire rate and the damage output. There aren't many CQC viable weapons other than the shotguns and swords but there should be an alternative to them at least. There's no slot 2 weapon that excels at close quarters so far either (the C-01r doesn't really count since it can also be good in mid-range) so having this change will make the Ray Rifle unique in its own class, even if by a minor change

tehswordninja wrote:Sniper Rifle: Give it a default 5 round mag (aka 5 shots till recharge), and make the fire rate much faster, with a slight damage nerf. To promote taking your time with shots, your spread would go up heavily if you fired it somewhat fast, but if you waited a few seconds, your spread would go down. Buff the range.

I'd prefer if the rate of fire was originally fast (same as the Alien Rifle) but shooting quick shots would make the projectiles deal a small percentage of its base damage. For the rifle to do full damage output, the player would have to wait about a second or two after firing a shot or just by waiting if all 5 shots are still in the magazine (those 3 lights could light up similarly to when reloading) until the lights turn green. There should obviously be recoil but not too much that players lose target acquisition. In addition to those quick shots I mentioned, they would also have little recoil since they possess little power. It'd be helpful so snipers that don't have any other weapons can still use their sniper rifles as a battle-rifle type defense weapon instead of waiting for the next shot to be fired, which in most cases would allow everyone else to kill the sniper since he or she has no chance to at least hold them off when reloading. It'll stop them from being too vulnerable when they have no other weapon

TLDR discount Alien Rifle with far less damage as an alternate firing mode

tehswordninja wrote:Heavy Railgun: Give it a 2-3 second charge. Buff the accuracy a tad.

The accuracy is fine enough but a faster cooldown could be interesting to see. It shouldn't be fast to a point where it demolishes the sniper rifle however
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby maxim12 » 5 January 2017, 21:13

Hikarikaze wrote:I think pistols are fine here. They're not supposed to be on par with say, rifles and shotguns for example. Slot 1 weapons are only really just backup weapons that you use to defend yourself but not necessarily kill outright, i.e it offers some kind of protection with the drawback of lacking easy killing capability.

C-01p: Why nerf the damage? It's the only pistol in its class to deliver power more than the rest and is supposed to be used as an aggressive weapon. That's why it's closer in regards to slot 2 weapons and the TTK with a C-01p in an approved map (if we're talking 130-150 HP) is generally realistic for a pistol. In this case, it'd be better off to reduce the penetration of the projectiles so that it can balance out the damage output and have the weapon still retain its offensive capability and nature.

CS pistol: This needs a downside otherwise it'd be a reincarnate of the C-01p. It's practically what pistols should be in terms of its role and it does its job just fine. Granted it doesn't kill people as fast as you would want, but the point of pistols isn't to kill people in 2 shots and call it a day. It's a backup weapon and should be treated as such.

What really needs to be looked at is the Alien Pistol, which is often overlooked because of better options like the C-01p. A slight damage boost would make the weapon more viable; at least bring it up to par with the CS pistol while retaining its passive trait of possessing the fastest projectile travel time. Either that or increase the fire rate while keeping the same damage output. It'll counter not being able to shoot through walls and make the Alien Pistol more viable overall



My main concern about both the C-01p Pistol and CS-Pistol is that the C-01p Pistol has complete advantage over the CS-Pistol; Better Damage per shot, Better Fire rate, Better Wall Penetration, basicaly complete advantage over the CS-Pistol, I mean everyone would switch out the CS-Pistol for the C-01p Pistol because It's way better than the CS-Pistol.

Thats my concern.

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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby tehswordninja » 6 January 2017, 02:30

maxim12 wrote:

My main concern about both the C-01p Pistol and CS-Pistol is that the C-01p Pistol has complete advantage over the CS-Pistol; Better Damage per shot, Better Fire rate, Better Wall Penetration, basicaly complete advantage over the CS-Pistol, I mean everyone would switch out the CS-Pistol for the C-01p Pistol because It's way better than the CS-Pistol.

Thats my concern.


Personally, I don't mind this, although I wouldn't mind seeing the both pistols (and the alien ones) get a rework so the CS pistol has more damage but slower rate of fire while the C9 pistol has a faster rate of fire than the CS pistol.

I think the best idea to fix this would increase the recoil and lower accuracy on the C9 pistol. It would still have its overall better stats, but you wouldn't be able to spam it without suffering recoil and accuracy loss.

Also, sorta random, but seeing Correction Nine weapons be generally better than Civil Security ones, but have one fatal flaw would be interesting imo.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby darkstar 1 » 8 January 2017, 15:03

Nah, it is good like it is now. It's not like weapons in real life are balanced as well.
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Re: Suggesting Weapon Rebalance...

Postby GhostX5 » 18 January 2017, 16:35

darkstar 1 wrote:Nah, it is good like it is now. It's not like weapons in real life are balanced as well.

Yup, I realized that the CS-RC rifle doesn't need anything. Well, I have received 0% problems with this one, especially in Campaign and Multiplayer. This weapon's amazing, though.
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